LISTENING IN: JON STEWART ON THE FUTURE OF COMEDY

>>> GOOD EVENING.

I'M RAPHAEL PI ROMAN.

AS OUR COUNTRY BECOMES MORE POLITICALLY AND MORALLY DIVIDED, THE THINGS WE FIND FUNNY SEEM TO BE DRIFTING APART AS WELL.

LEAVING QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT THE FUTURE OF COMEDY SHOULD LOOK LIKE IN THE UNITED STATES.

TO EXPLORE THAT WE TURN TO COMEDIANS WHOSE OWN WORK -- THE MOST DIVISIVE ASPECTS OF OUR SOCIETY TO GET THEIR TAKE ON WHETHER OR NOT IT'S POSSIBLE TO USE HUMOR TO REAM ACROSS POLITICAL LINES.

LET'S LISTEN IN ON A RECENT CONVERSATION ON THIS TOPIC BETWEEN JON STEWART AND MICHAEL SCHUR, TWO OF THE MOST SUCCESSFUL TELEVISION COMEDIANS OF OUR ERA AS PART OF THE LISTENING IN SERIES WITH OUR PARTNER THE 92nd Y.

>> HOW CAN COMEDIANS HELP OUR SOCIETY HEAL, AND HOW CAN WE START ENJOYING THE SAME JOKES REGARDLESS OF POLITICAL IDENTITY?

AND IS THAT SOMETHING THAT YOU EVER THINK ABOUT?

>> I'M NOT SURE WHAT THE SAME JOKES MEANS.

>> I THINK IT MEANS CAN WE FIND A GROUP THAT'S SO OUT -- [ LAUGHTER ] THAT EVEN -- NOW, GENERALLY THAT'S BEEN JEWS.

YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S THAT LONGING FOR A CAMARADERIE IN SOCIETY THAT I'M NOT SURE EVER EXISTED.

I THINK IT MAY BE ONE OF THOSE THINGS TO FUZZY NOSTALGIA, BECAUSE I DON'T RECALL, AND I HAVE BEEN IN THE BUSINESS 35 YEARS, ALMOST 40 YEARS, EVER BEING A TIME WHERE AMERICANS WERE UNITED STATES IN THEIR POLITICAL IDEOLOGY AND WHAT THEY THOUGHT WAS FUNNY.

>> NO.

NEVER HAPPENED.

>> YEAH.

>> I WILL SAY THIS IN TERMS OF, LIKE, HOW WE GET BACK TO NORMAL OR WHATEVER.

>> RIGHT.

>> I STARTED WORKING AT "SNL" IN '98.

A COUPLE YEARS LATER, MY FRIEND ROB LEFT TO GO TO L.A.

HE WAS RUNNING WEEKEND UPDATE, AND I WAS ASKED TO RUN WEEKEND UPDATE AFTER HE LEFT, AND I THOUGHT, WELL, THIS SOUNDS FUN.

FUNNY, SILLY NEWS JOKES.

I CAN DO THAT.

THAT WAS A -- I TOOK THE JOB ON, LIKE, AUGUST 25th, 2001.

AND MY FIRST SHOW OF FUNNY -- >> DON'T SPOIL IT FOR EVERYBODY!

>> SHOULD HAVE SAID SPOILER ALERT.

I BLEW IT.

THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN SUCH A GOOD CALLBACK.

MY FIRST SHOW, MY FIRST WEEKEND UPDATE FOR FUNNY SILLY NEWS JOKES WAS THE 9/11 SHOW, AND WE HAD A BUNCH OF MEETINGS, AND WE HAD ALL -- WE ASKED A LOT OF THE SAME QUESTIONS WE'VE ALL BEEN ASKING RECENTLY BECAUSE OF THE PANDEMIC.

HOW CAN WE GET BACK TO NORMAL?

HOW CAN WE TELL JOKES?

ALL THAT SORT OF STUFF.

THE ONLY THING WE COULD THINK OF TO DO WAS TO JUST DO WEEKEND UPDATE, JUST MAKE A BUNCH OF JOKES ABOUT WHATEVER WAS IN THE NEWS, BRING A COUPLE ACTORS ON IN SILLY COSTUMES, PUT ONE FOOT FROM FRONT OF THE OTHER AND TRUST THIS IS SOMETHING PEOPLE WANT.

THE FIST JOKE WE DID ON THAT SHOW, AND IN A MOMENT OF FRAYED NERVES AND MAXIMUM ANXIETY -- BY THE WAY, THIS IS ALSO TWO WEEKS BEFORE ANTHRAX WAS FOUND IN OUR BUILDING.

WE ALL HAD TO LEAVE AND DO THIS AGAIN.

>> AGAIN, IN MY DEFENSE -- [ LAUGHTER ] >> SO, THE FIRST JOKE WE TOLD WAS THE CIA NOW BELIEVES THAT OSAMA BIN LADEN IS PROBABLY HIDING OUT SOME PLACE THAT'S VERY DARK AND WHERE THERE ARE VERY FEW PEOPLE, SO THEY HAVE BEGUN SEARCHING THEATERS SHOWING THE MOVIE "GLITTER".

MARIAH CAREY VEHICLE WHICH HAD COME OUT ONE WEEK EARLIER.

IT'S A PRETTY GOOD JOKE.

IT'S NOT THE BEST JOKE OF ALL TIME.

>> I LIKE IT.

>> JIMMY FALLON TOLD THAT JOKE, AND THERE WAS A SECONDS HESITATION AND A CATHARTIC RAPTUROUS LAUGH CAME OUT OF THE AUDIENCE.

IT WAS LIKE, THAT'S WHAT WE DO, TELL DUMB JOKES ABOUT MARIAH CAREY MOVIES.

WHATEVER IS HAPPENING IN THE WORLD, ESPECIALLY AT TIMES OF NATIONAL STRIFE AND TENSION, THE ANSWER WHEN IT COMES TO COMEDY IS YOU JUST START DOING COMEDY AGAIN.

PEOPLE WILL GO BACK TO COMEDY CLUBS AND THEY'LL FILL UP AGAIN AS THEY DID AFTER 9/11, AND TV SHOWS WILL COME OUT, AND THERE WILL BE INTERESTING THINGS THAT HAPPEN, LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, "TED LASSO" CAME OUT IN JUNE OF THE FIRST YEAR OF THIS PANDEMIC, IT WAS JUST EXACTLY WHAT AMERICA NEEDED AND WANTED IN THAT MOMENT.

SO THINGS WILL CHANGE AND SHIFT AND WILL EVOLVE LIKE THEY ALWAYS DO, BUT WE WON'T STOP WANTING FUNNY THINGS, AND PEOPLE WILL KEEP DOING FUNNY THINGS AND EVENTUALLY IT WILL NEVER GO BACK TO EXACTLY WHAT IT WAS.

I THINK THAT'S GOOD.

I DON'T THINK IT SHOULD EVER GO BACK TO EXACTLY WHAT IT WAS, BECAUSE IT'S A CONSTANT ENDLESS MARCH OF CHANGE AND PROGRESS AND EVERYTHING ELSE.

SO, WILL IT EVER BE THE SAME?

WILL WE EVER ENJOY THE SAME JOKES?

NO, I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD.

IF YOU GO BACK TO AN OLD STANDUP SET YOU DID FROM THE LATE '80s, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO WANT TO DO THOSE JOKES ANYMORE.

AYE SEEN THOSE JOKES.

>> NO, I WOULDN'T DO THOSE JOKES ON THE ROAD.

PEOPLE PAY GOOD MONEY TO SEE -- WHY WOULD THEY WANT TO HEAR SADDAM HUSSEIN STUFF.

I GET THAT.

>> THE POINT IS COMEDY, ALL OF IT HAS AN EXPIRATION DATE ON IT.

THE MINUTE YOU TELL A JOKE, THE CLOCK STARTING TICKING TO A POINT THAT JOKE WILL NO LONGER BE FUNNY OR BECOME UNPLEASANT OR OFFENSIVE.

THE GOAL SHOULD NEVER BE, I THINK, TO DO THE SAME JOKES.

THE GOAL SHOULD BE TO DO BETTER MORE INTERESTING JOKES THAT REFLECT WHEREVER WE ARE NOW.

>> RIGHT.

I THINK THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT, AND I REALLY APPRECIATE THAT.

AND IT'S THE KIND OF THING -- THE OTHER THING I WOULD BE CURIOUS ABOUT YOUR OPINION ON IS HOW YOU THINK THE CHANGING VALUES OF SOCIETY SHOULD CHANGE WHAT COMEDIANS DO.

I'M TORN.

THERE'S A PART OF ME -- I DON'T KNOW IF I'M MORE COMEDIAN THAN MAN SOMETIMES, WHERE, YOU KNOW, WE'VE ALL GOTTEN SO RELENTLESS IN OUR CRITICISMS OF EACH OTHER BECAUSE WE'RE ALL AWARE OF WHAT WE ALL THINK NOW IN A WAY.

TWITTER AND SOCIAL MEDIA IS LIKE -- WHAT WAS THE MOVIE MEL GIBSON, HE WAS LIKE A DOCTOR AND -- OR NO, HE GOT ESP AND HE COULD TELL -- >> "WHAT WOMEN WANT."

>> SORRY.

>> I DID NOT THINK THAT MOVIE WAS GOING TO COME UP TONIGHT.

>> YEAH.

I BRING IT UP AT EVERY -- BUT THAT'S TWITTER.

TWITTER IS WE ALL KNOW HAVE ESP, AND SO THAT -- YOU HEAR THAT WHEN YOU DO A COMEDY PERFORMANCE, AND THIS IS A LIVE PERFORMANCE, WHETHER YOU WERE WRITING THE JOKES FOR "SNL."

IN THE AUDIENCE -- AN AUDIENCE IS AN ORGANISM.

IT'S LIKE A BORG.

AND YOU COULD BE KILLING IT, BUT I COULD ALWAYS IN AN AUDIENCE FIND SOME PEOPLE THAT JUST AREN'T HAVING IT.

DON'T LIKE ME, DON'T LIKE THE ACT, DON'T KNOW WHY.

BUT NOW THAT THERE'S SOCIAL MEDIA, I DO KNOW WHY.

>> SOCIAL MEDIA IS RIDING HOME FROM THE SHOW WITH THE PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T LIKE IT IN THE BACK, AND JUST GOING LIKE -- [ LAUGHTER ] TRYING NOT TO LET THAT AFFECT YOUR WORK.

>> YEAH.

>> OR AFFECT WHAT YOU DO OR AFFECT -- YOU KNOW, WE ALWAYS USED TO HAVE A JOKE THAT IT'S ALWAYS FUNNY TILL IT HAPPENS TO YOUR GUY.

YOU KNOW, MADE A JOKE ABOUT A DEMOCRAT AND THE AUDIENCE WOULD ALWAYS GO, HEY, AND YOU'D BE LIKE, HMM.

>> YEAH, SORRY MAN.

>> I THINK THAT'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE THE PROBLEM WITH COMEDY.

THEY SAY LAUGHTER'S THE BEST MEDICINE, BUT LAUGHTER IS ALSO A TOXIN.

BECAUSE IN -- IT IS IN ESSENCE PROVOCATIVE.

IT'S PART OF WHAT IT DOES.

IT'S NOT HERE TO HEAL YOU.

AND IT'S NOT HERE TO GENERAL SET -- UPSET YOU.

IT'S JUST HERE.

SO THAT'S I THINK THE THING YOU GRAPPLE WITH AS TIMES CHANGE.

>> YEAH, I WOULD ALSO SAY, THOUGH, THAT THE -- ONE OF THE GOOD THINGS ABOUT THE AGE WE LIVE IN IS THAT PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN ABLE TO EXPRESS THEMSELVES CAN NOW EXPRESS THEMSELVES, AND THAT IS -- >> EXACTLY.

>> I AM ON TWITTER WAY TOO MUCH.

I TWEET WAY TOO OFTEN.

I HAVE BEEN AT TIMES LIKE, THIS IS TOXIC, I'M LEAVING, GOOD-BYE.

AND TWO WEEKS LATER I'M LIKE, I HAVE A JOKE ABOUT PAUL RYAN AND I REALLY NEED TO GET IT OUT OF MY BRAIN, AND IF I DON'T I'M GOING TO EXPLODE.

AND I GO BACK AND FALL BACK INTO THE OLD HABITS.

I REALIZED MANY YEARS AGO THAT THE PROBLEM ISN'T TWITTER.

>> YES.

>> THE PROBLEM IS ME.

SO I TURNED MY MENTIONS OFF, AND I DON'T INTERACT WITH ANYBODY, DON'T RESPOND TO ANYBODY.

I DON'T SEE THE THINGS THAT WHEN PEOPLE TRY TO TROLL ME OR SAY YOU'RE AN IDIOT, YOUR SHOWS SUCK -- I'M SURE IT'S STILL HAPPENING.

I DON'T SEE IT.

PART OF THE PROBLEM OF THE ECHO CHAMBER UNIVERSE WE LIVE IN IS WE'RE PLAYING RADIO STATIONS THAT ONLY HAS THE MUSIC WE WANT TO HEAR.

THAT HAS ITS OWN DANGERS.

BUT WHEN IT COMES TO THE EXPRESSION OF THE GRIEVANCE, I THINK I'D RATHER LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE PEOPLE WHO HAVE LEGITIMATE GRIEVANCES GET TO AIR THEM AND THEY GET HEARD.

WE USED TO LI IN A WORLD WHERE NEITHER OF THEM WERE TRUE.

>> PEOPLE AIRED THEM, YOU JUST DIDN'T HEAR THEM.

>> THEY AIRED THEM ALONE IN THEIR HOUSES, AND THAT IS NOT A GOOD WORLD EITHER.

SOMETIMES WHEN I SEE PEOPLE COMPLAIN ABOUT THE WORLD WORKS NOW, I UNDERSTAND IT AND I SEE THOSE GEARS GRINDING AND I THINK AT TIMES THE PENDULUM MAYBE HAS SWUNG TOO FAR IN CERTAIN DIRECTIONS AND CERTAIN WAYS.

I ALSO THINK I WOULD FAR RATHER LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE PEOPLE WHO HAVE LEGITIMATE GRIEVANCES ABOUT STRUCTURAL POWER, WHO HAVE BEEN MARGINALIZED AND NEVER HAD A VOICE, THOSE PEOPLE HAVE A VOICE NOW IN ANY NUMBER OF DIFFERENT WAYS.

I THINK IT'S BETTER ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL.

>> RIGHT, THE DEMOCRATIZATION OF GRIEVANCE.

>> YES, EXACTLY.

>> I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND, FOR COMEDIANS, WHEN THEY COMPLAIN -- AGAIN, THAT'S A WHOLE OTHER CONVERSATION.

BUT I MAKE MY LIVING TALKING -- LIKE, THAT'S WHAT I DO.

I'VE DONE IT FOR A LONG TIME.

I WOULD BE HARD PRESSED TO THEN COMPLAIN TO BE LIKE, ARE YOU TALKING -- TO ME?

I MEAN, BASICALLY THAT'S WHAT WE DO.

MY POINT IS, TALKING BUT WITH GRACE.

YOU KNOW, I THINK WE ALL HAVE TO REALIZE, THIS IS FAIR GAME, LIKE, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN TALK ABOUT A WOKE MOB THAT WILL COME AFTER YOU FOR A JOKE THEY THINK IS INTEMPERATE TO A DISADVANTAGED GROUP OR A RIGHT WING MOB THAT IS GOING TO COME AFTER YOU BECAUSE YOU WANT TO TEACH ABOUT HARRYET TUBMAN.

BUT THE TRUTH OF THE WORLD, YOU REALLY WANT TO STEP IN SOME -- MAKE FUN OF BTS.

[ LAUGHTER ] >> MICHAEL SCHUR, IS THERE ANYTHING YOU WOULD LIKE TO ADD TONIGHT PHILOSOPHICALLY SPEAKING?

IF TERM OF ETHICS AND WRITING A BOOK, I DON'T WANT TO PUT YOU ON THE SPOT, BUT IS THERE ANYTHING YOU WOULD LIKE TO LEAVE US WITH THAT WILL CHANGE OUR LIVES?

[ LAUGHTER ] >> I -- I THINK THE ESSENCE OF THE SHOW "THE GOOD PLACE", AND OF THIS BOOK IS THAT WHAT IS IMPORTANT ULTIMATELY IS THAT YOU CARE ONE WAY OR ANOTHER WHETHER WHAT YOU'RE DOING IS GOOD OR BAD.

I THINK THE PROBLEM WITH A LOT OF THE PEOPLE WE SEE, ESPECIALLY PEOPLE IN POWER, PEOPLE BORN ON THIRD BASE, THOUGHT THEY HIT A TRIP AND THEN RETIRED TO THEIR PALM BEACH ESTATE IS THAT NOT ONLY DO THEY NOT CARE AT ALL, THEY ENJOY FLAUNTING THE FACT THAT THEY DON'T CARE, RIGHT?

AND THE PATH TO IMPROVEMENT, IF THERE IS SUCH A THING, BEGINS WITH A VERY SIMPLE DECISION, WHICH IS I'M GOING TO DECIDE I CARE ONE WAY OR ANOTHER WHETHER WHAT I'M DOING IS GOOD OR BAD, AND THAT MEANS I'M GOING TO TRY TO BE BETTER.

KNOWING THAT YOU ARE TRYING MEANS KNOWING THAT YOU WILL FAIL, YOU WILL BLOW IT ALL THE TIME.

YOU WILL STEP IN IT.

YOU WILL MAKE FUN OF BTS AT THE WRONG MOMENT AND HIDE IN YOUR HOUSE THREE WEEKS.

YOU WILL CAUSE PEOPLE PAIN, ANGUISH AND SUFFERING WHEN DUH NOT INTEND TO.

AND WHEN THOSE THINGS HAPPEN, THE TEMPTATION IS TO NOT CARE.

BECAUSE IT'S LIKE, I CARED AND LOOK WHAT HAPPENED.

I GOT PUNCHED IN THE FACE.

AND THE ONLY REAL CONCLUSION I'VE COME TO IN ALL OF THIS STUFF, READING ALL THIS STUFF AND TALKING ABOUT IT FOR YEARS WITH ALL THE PEOPLE I'VE TALKED ABOUT IT WITH IS THAT THE ONLY THING YOU CAN CONTROL IS WHETHER OR NOT YOU CARE.

WHETHER OR NOT YOU CARE IF WHAT YOU'RE DOING IS GOOD OR BAD.

YOU CAN ACTUALLY MAKE THAT DECISION, AND THEN YOU CAN ACTUALLY DECIDE YOU'RE GOING TO TRY TO BE GOOD, AND YOU THEN MAYBE HAVE A BETTER CHANCE OF LEARNING FROM THE MISTAKES YOU WILL INEVITABLY MAKE.

THAT'S THE ETHOS OF THE SHOW AND THIS BOOK I WROTE.