March 22, 2023

♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

MORE HORRIFYING IMAGES FROM UKRAINE, AS RUSSIA ATTACKS THE RESIDENTIAL APARTMENT BUILDING.

THE LATEST AS I SPEAK TO THE HEAD OF UKRAINE'S NOBEL PRIZE-WINNING CENTER FOR CIVIL LIBERTIES.

>>> THEN A NEW SCHOOL YEAR BEGINS IN AFGHANISTAN, JUST NOT FOR THE COUNTRY'S YOUNG WOMEN.

AS MOST REMAIN BARRED FROM THE BASIC RIGHT TO AN EDUCATION.

AND -- >> WHAT WE SEE IS A DRAMATIC INCREASE IN THE AGGRESSIVENESS AND RANGE.

>> TRANS JOURNALIST TALKS TO US ABOUT THE TIDAL WAVE OF ANTI-LGBTQ LEGISLATION ACROSS THE UNITED STATES.

>>> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.

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COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

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WE TRY NOT TO MISS WHAT'S RIGHT IN FRONT OF US.

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THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

ANOTHER WAVE OF RUSSIAN MISSILE ATTACKS IS TARGETING UKRAINIAN CIVILIANS.

CAN YOU SEE TWO OF THEM STRIKING A RESIDENTIAL BUILDING.

THE DEAD AND WOUNDED ARE STILL BEING COUNTED.

AND MORE DEATH AND INJURY IN THE KYIV REGION WHERE THERE HAS BEEN A SERIES OF DRONES.

MORE THAN 8,300 CIVILIANS HAVE BEEN KILLED SINCE RUSSIA BEGAN ITS WAR, AS PUTIN CONTINUES STRINGING INFRASTRUCTURE AND DWELLINGS.

THIS COMES AS THE MINISTER FOR CHILDREN'S AFFAIRS HAVE BEEN STOPPED WITH ARREST WARRANTS OVER THE FORCED DEPORTATIONS OF THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF UKRAINIAN CHILDREN FROM RUSSIAN-OCCUPIED REGIONS.

I'VE BEEN SPEAKING WITH THE HUMAN RIGHTS LAWYER AND HEAD OF UKRAINE'S CENTER FOR CIVIL LIBERTIES, WHICH LAST YEAR WAS ONE OF THE RECIPIENTS OF THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE.

ALEXANDRA, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU FOR YOUR INVITATION.

>> CAN I JUST START BY ASKING YOU ABOUT TODAY.

YOU'RE IN UKRAINE.

YOU HAVE SEEN ANOTHER WAVE OF MISSILES IN THE ZAPORIZHZHIA AND THE KYIV REGION.

WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THIS?

AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN IN THE BROADER HUMAN RIGHTS PICTURE?

>> YOU SPEAK ABOUT THE GENERAL HUMAN CONDITION, WE CAN'T KNOW WHETHER THE NEXT AIR ALARM STARTED OR WHEN INTERNET WILL DISAPPEAR.

AND WHEN WE SPEAK ABOUT OUR PROFESSIONAL POINT OF VIEW IS THE NEXT WAR CRIME WHICH WAS COMMITTED BY RUSSIANS WHICH WE HAVE TO DOCUMENT.

>> AND HOW ARE YOU GETTING ON WITH DOCUMENTS?

BECAUSE YOU'VE BEEN DOING IT IN REAL TIME, ALONG WITH OTHER ORGANIZATIONS INSIDE AND OUTSIDE UKRAINE.

HOW IS THE DOCUMENTATION GOING?

>> WELL, WE UNITED WITH OTHER REGIONAL ORGANIZATIONS AND WE BUILD ALL UKRAINIAN NETWORK OF LOCAL HUMAN FACILITATORS.

WE ARE ABLE TO HELP IN THE PLACE OF CRIME.

THEY MAKE THEIR OWN PHOTOS AND VIDEOS, COLLECT TESTIMONIES, ELSE.

>> AND YOUR GOVERNMENT TODAY SAID THE LATEST ATTACKS ARE DELIBERATE ATTACKS AGAINST CIVILIANS.

SO THAT IS A WAR CRIME, OBVIOUSLY.

I WONDER HOW YOU GET YOUR DOCUMENTING TEAMS TO THE PLACES THAT ARE UNDER ATTACK.

>> IT'S DETERMINES WHERE THE CRIME IS COMMITTED.

BECAUSE RUSSIAN TROOPS TARGET RESIDENTIAL BUILDINGS, HOSPITALS, SCHOOLS, MANAGEMENT SYSTEMS.

AND TORTURES, RAPES, ABDUCTIONS IN THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES.

SO WHEN WE SPEAK ABOUT CONTROLLED PART BY UKRAINIAN GOVERNMENT, WHICH IS FAR FROM THE BATTLE ZONE, IT'S EASIER FOR US TO SEND FOLKS TO THE GROUND.

BUT WHEN WE SPEAK ABOUT COMMUNICATIONS ON THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES, IT'S VERY DIFFICULT JOB, BECAUSE THESE PEOPLE WHO COLLECT INFORMATION THERE CAN BE SUBJECTED TO LEGAL DETENTION AND TORTURE.

>> AND ALSO, ALEXANDRA, I'VE HEARD THAT, YOU KNOW, EVEN THOSE COMMITTING THE CRIMES ARE MUCH LESS THE VICTIMS IN THE OCCUPIED REGION, MAYBE MANY OF THEM ARE DEAD BY NOW.

DO YOU CONSIDER THAT A PROBLEM IN TERMS OF ACCOUNTABILITY IN THE FUTURE?

>> IT'S A HUGE PROBLEM THAT I'M, AS A UKRAINIAN HUMAN RIGHTS DEFENDER, WHO HAVE BEEN APPLYING THE LAW MANY YEARS TO PROTECT PEOPLE AND HUMAN DIGNITY, HAVE NO LEGAL TOOLS HOW TO PROTECT PEOPLE IN OCCUPIED TERRITORIES, AND PEOPLE THERE LIVE IN GRAY ZONE.

THEY HAVE NO CHANCE TO PROTECT THEIR RIGHTS, THEIR FREEDOM, THEIR PROPERTY, THEIR LIFE, AND LOVED ONES.

THIS MEANS THAT OCCUPATION IS NOT ALTERNATIVE TO THE WAR.

IT'S JUST ANOTHER FORM OF THIS WAR.

>> YOU KNOW, WE'VE HEARD THE MOST TERRIBLE STORIES ABOUT CHILDREN, THE ATTACK ON CHILDREN, THE FORCIBLE DEPORTATION OF CHILDREN.

THE KIDNAP OF CHILDREN, THE INDOCTRINATION OF CHILDREN, THE FORCED ADOPTION OF CHILDREN OVER IN RUSSIA.

AND, AS YOU KNOW, THE ICC HAS ISSUED A WARRANT FOR THE ARREST OF VLADIMIR PUTIN AND HIS SO-CALLED COMMISSIONER FOR CHILDREN'S AFFAIRS.

AND HER NAME IS MARIA LAVOVA BELOVEA.

DO YOU SEE THIS AS A GOOD FIRST STEP IN HOW DO YOU REACT TO THE ICC WARRANT?

>> I WELCOME THIS ARREST WARRANT, BECAUSE IT'S HISTORICAL DECISION.

IT'S FIRST IN THE HISTORY WHEN INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT ISSUED ARREST WARRANT FROM THE CURRENT HEAD OF THE STATE, WHICH IS THE MEMBER OF SECURITY COUNCIL OF U.N. AND THE STATE, WHICH HAS A HUGE NUCLEAR POTENTIAL, THIS MEANS THAT INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT EMPHASIZED ONCE AGAIN THAT WE HAVE TO LIVE IN THE WAR, BUT THE RULE OF LAW DICTATE RULES, NOT BRUTAL FORCE.

>> SO I WANT TO PLAY A SOUND BITE OF, IT WAS LAST MONTH, WHEN THIS WOMAN, MARIA WAS TALKING TO VLADIMIR PUTIN IN THE KREMLIN ABOUT THIS ABDUCTION, ALTHOUGH SHE DIDN'T CALL IT THAT, AND IT WAS ABOUT HER ADOPTING A CHILD FROM MARIUPOL.

LISTEN TO THIS.

>> Translator: DID YOU ADOPT A CHILD FROM MARIUPOL YOURSELF?

>> YES, THANK US TO, 15 YEARS OLD.

NOW I KNOW WHAT IT MEANS TO BE MOTHER OF A CHILD.

IT'S DIFFICULT, BUT WE DEFINITELY LOVE EACH OTHER.

>> WHAT DO YOU FEEL?

I JUST WANT TO KNOW YOUR FEELING WHEN YOU FIRST SAW THAT.

>> IT'S VERY SENSITIVE TOPIC FOR ME AND FOR UKRAINIANS, BECAUSE IT'S CHILDREN.

AND THIS IS UKRAINIAN CHILDREN WHO ARE FORCIBLY EDUCATED AS RUSSIANS.

AND IN THE PRESS RELEASE, INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT QUALIFIED IT AS A WAR CRIME, BUT I BELIEVE WE HAVE TO PROVE THAT IT'S MUCH MORE BIGGER.

IT'S A COMPONENT OF GENOCIDICAL POLICY WHICH RUSSIA IMPOSED AGAINST UKRAINE.

>> OKAY.

THAT'S A REALLY HUGE CRIME, AS YOU KNOW, IT'S THE HIGHEST CRIME UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW.

GENOCIDE.

TELL ME WHAT LEGAL ROOT DO YOU SEE FROM THOSE ABDUCTIONS TO ACTUAL GENOCIDE?

WHY DO YOU CALL IT THAT?

>> WHEN WE STATE THAT THIS WAR HAS GENOCIDICAL CHARACTER, WE'RE NOT JUST RELY UPON THE STATEMENT OF PUTIN AND HIS SURROUNDING THAT UKRAINE HAS NO RIGHT TO EXIST, THERE IS NO UKRAINIAN NATION, THERE IS NO UKRAINIAN CULTURE.

THERE IS NO UKRAINIAN LAND WEDGE, BUT ALSO ON ACTIVITIES WHICH RUSSIANS COMMITTED IN UKRAINE.

IT'S VERY REASONABLE IN TERRITORIES, THEY FORCIBLY CHANGED IDENTITY OF PEOPLE.

THEY PROHIBIT UKRAINIAN LANGUAGE.

THEY TRY TO PROSECUTE, NOT TRIAL, BUT PROSECUTE PEOPLE WHO EXPRESS UKRAINIAN IDENTITY.

AND IN THIS REGARD, WHEN WE SPEAK THAT UKRAINIAN CHILDREN ARE FORCIBLY RE-EDUCATED AS RUSSIANS, IT'S A COMPONENT OF THIS POLICY, BECAUSE WHEN WE HAVE THIS INSIDGENOCIDICAL INTE THERE IS NO OBLIGATION JUST TO KILL ALL MEMBERS OF THIS GROUP.

CAN YOU JUST FORCIBLY CHANGE THEIR IDENTITY OF MEMBERS OF THE GROUP.

AND THE WHOLE GROUP WILL DISAPPEAR.

>> YES, YOU'RE QUOTING, OBVIOUSLY, THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS AND THE LAWS THAT DESCRIBE THE COMPONENTS OF GENOCIDE.

THAT IS GOING TO BE SOMETHING TO BE LOOKED AT DOWN THE LINE.

BUT IMMEDIATELY, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT ISSUING THIS ARREST FOR THIS CRIME MIGHT STOP THIS CRIME?

DO YOU HAVE ANY HOPE THAT, BECAUSE THE RUSSIANS SAY PROUDLY THAT THEY'RE DOING IT.

FOR HUMANITARIAN REASONS.

THAT'S WHAT THEY SAY.

DO YOU THINK IT MIGHT STOP?

>> I THINK THAT WE WILL NOT ACHIEVE EASY SOLUTION, BUT IS A FIRST, IMPORTANT STEP TO BREAK THE CIRCLE WHICH RUSSIAN TROOPS ENJOYED, BECAUSE RUSSIAN TROOPS COMMIT HORRIBLE WAR CRIMES, THIS CHECHNYA, IN GEORGIA, IN SYRIA, IN LIBYA, IN OTHER COUNTRIES OF THE WORLD.

AND THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN PUNISHED FOR THIS.

THEY START TO BELIEVE THEY CAN DO WHATEVER THEY WANT.

AND THAT IS WHY IT'S A FIRST SIGNAL, WHICH WAS SENT TO RUSSIA THAT YOU WILL BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR EVERYTHING WHICH YOU COMMITTED ON THE TERRITORY OF UKRAINE.

>> IT'S SAID THAT, WELL CERTAINLY, THE UKRAINIAN PROSECUTOR GENERAL'S OFFICE HAVE SAID SOME 67,000 CRIMES HAVE BEEN DOCUMENTED AS OF THIS MOMENT.

AND, AS YOU KNOW, THERE ARE LOTS OF DIFFERENT ORGANIZATIONS, NGOs, THE ICC, MANY OTHER BODIES WHO ARE TRYING TO HELP UKRAINE WITH, WITH THIS.

HOW IS IT GOING AS FAR AS YOU'RE CONCERNED?

IS THERE A TREATMENT LINED EFFORT?

IS IT ALL OVER THE PLACE?

WHAT IS THE PROCESS?

>> WE FACE WITH A HUGE ACCOUNTABILITY GAP.

BECAUSE NATIONAL SYSTEM IS OVERLOADED WITH EXTREME AMOUNT OF CRIME.

AND INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT WILL LIMIT ITS INVESTIGATION ONLY TO SEVERAL SELECTED CASES.

AND THE QUESTION IS ON THE TABLE, WHO WILL PROVIDE JUSTICE FOR HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF VICTIMS OF THIS WAR WHO WILL NOT BE SELECTED BI BE SELECTED BY THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT.

WE NEED INTERASSISTNATIONAL ASSE AND WE HAVE TO IMPLEMENT INTERNATIONAL ELEMENT ON THE LEVEL OF NATIONAL INVESTIGATION AND NATIONAL JUSTICE.

BECAUSE LIFE OF EACH PERSON MATTERS.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU A QUESTION ABOUT MEMORIALE, WHICH IS THE RUSSIAN HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATION WHICH WAS A CO-WINNER WITH YOU FOR THE NOBEL PRIZE.

NOW 15 MONTHS LATER, YOU KNOW, THEY'VE BEEN SHOT DOWN, MEMORIALE, THEY'VE HAD THEIR HOUSES RAIDED, THEIR APARTMENTS RAIDED.

I GUESS MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, DO YOU FEEL THAT THERE'S ANY ORGANIZATION IN RUSSIA RIGHT NOW THAT CAN HOLD THEIR OWN AUTHORITIES ACCOUNTABLE IN THAT CAACCOUNTABLE?

THAT CAN AT LEAST REPORT ABOUT THEM AND SPEAK ABOUT THESE THINGS?

>> I CONTINUE TO EXPRESS MY SOLIDARITY WITH OUR RUSSIAN HUMAN RIGHTS CLINICS.

BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT JUST NOBEL PRIZE WINNER.

THEY ARE OTHER FRIENDS AND COLLEAGUES, AND WE CLOSELY COOPERATED WITH THEM FOR MANY, MANY YEARS.

AND WHEN THE WAR STARTED, THEY TOOK A VERY PROACTIVE AND HONEST HUMAN POSITION.

THEY OPENLY NAMED THE WAR, THEY SAID THAT IT'S INTERNATIONAL CRIME, AND THEY HELP US A LOT WITH THE CASES OF UKRAINIAN POLITICAL PRISONERS.

BUT FOR CURRENT MOMENT, NEITHER MEMORIALE, NEITHER HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATION IN RUSSIA CAN HAVE INFLUENCE TO THE SITUATION.

BECAUSE THEY MARGINAL IN THEIR OWN SOCIETY.

UNFORTUNATELY, MAJORITY OF RUSSIANS SUPPORTED THIS WAR, BECAUSE THEY HAVE THIS IMPERIALISTIC CULTURE.

AND ONCE FORCIBLY RESTORE THEIR FORMER RUSSIAN EMPIRE.

>> I WANT TO ASK AH PERSONAL QUESTION, AS A WOMAN, A HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST TRYING TO PURSUE THE MOST INTENSE CASES OF YOUR LIFE AND CAREER, I ASSUME, WOMEN ARE HUGELY IMPLICATED AND ARE VICTIMS AS WELL AS CHILDREN IN THIS WAR THAT'S BEEN FOISTED ON YOUR COUNTRY.

WHAT DOARE YOUR PERSONAL REFLECTIONS AND FEELINGS AT THIS MOMENT IN THIS WAR?

>> I HAVE TO, FIRST I MUST BE VERY HONORED THAT I AM WORKING IN HUMAN RIGHTS FIELD FOR 20 YEARS, AND NINE OF THEM I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN WAR CRIMES.

I PERSONALLY INTERVIEWED HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE WHO SURVIVED, AND THEY TOLD ME HORRIBLE STORIES, WHETHER THEY WERE RAPED, HOW THEIR FINGERS GOT CUT, TORTURED WITH ELECTRICITY AND OTHER KINDS OF HORRIBLE DETAILS.

BUT EVEN I, WITH ALL MY EXPERIENCE ON THE GROUND WASN'T PREPARED FOR SUCH LEVEL OF ATROCITIES.

BECAUSE RUSSIA USES WAR CRIMES AS THE METHOD OF WARFARE, AND RUSSIA ATTEMPTS TO BREAK PEOPLE'S RESISTANCE AND OCCUPY UKRAINE BY INFLICTING THEIR IMMENSE PAIN ON MILLIONS OF PEOPLE.

BUT SECOND MY FEELINGS.

IT'S A FEELING OF LOVE.

BECAUSE WHEN LARGE SCALE INVASIONS STARTED, IT'S RESULTED IN A HUGE RACE OF SOLIDARITY AMONG PEOPLE IN UKRAINE.

AND WE BECOME WITNESS TO HOW ORDINARY PEOPLE STARTED TO DO EXTRAORDINARY THINGS, AND ORDINARY PEOPLE REMAINED AND START TO DO THEIR WORK.

THEY BROKEN CIRCLEMENT TO PROVIDE HUMANITARIAN AID.

THEY RESCUED PEOPLE WHO TRAPPED INTO THE RUBBLE OF PRESIDENTIAL BUILDINGS, ET CETERA, ET CETERA.

AND NOW I THINK THAT WE, LIKE NEVER BEFORE, HAVE THIS VERY SHARP FEELING, WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE A HUMAN BEING?

IN AMAZING.

ALE ALEXANDRA, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND THE INSIDIOUS CHIPPING AWAY AT HUMAN RIGHTS IS HAPPENING ALL ACROSS THE WORLD, WITH WOMEN, MINORITIES AND THE LGBTQ PARTICULARLY VULNERABLE.

IN A MOMENT, WE WILL LOOK AT THE CRACKDOWN ON WOMEN'S RIGHTS IN AFGHANISTAN, BUT FIRST, TO UGANDA, WHERE PARLIAMENT HAS APPLAUDED THE PASSAGE OF A BILL MAKING IT ILLEGAL TO IDENTIFY AS LGBTQ, IN THE UNITED STATES, WHERE THE GEORGIA LEGISLATURE HAS PASSED THE LATEST IN A STRING OF ANTI-TRANS BILLS.

OUR NEXT GUEST SAYS IT IS NO COINCIDENCE.

EMARRA JONES JOINS MICHELLE MARTIN TO BREAK DOWN WHAT'S BEHIND THE ONSLAUGHT OF THE ANTI LGBT Q LAWS ACROSS AMERICA AND THE WORLD.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> THE SPECIFIC THING WE WANTED TO START WITH TODAY IS THAT IN 2023 ALONE, THIS IS ACCORDING TO THE ACLU, MORE THAN 426 BILLS THAT HAVE BEEN IDENTIFIED OR DESCRIBED AS ANTI-LGBTQ LAWS HAVE BEEN INTRODUCED IN STATE LEGISLATURES ACROSS THE U.S. AND THIS IS A MARKED CONTRAST FROM A FEW YEARS AGO WHEN THIS WAS NOT A SMALL NUMBER, BUT IF 2019, THERE WERE SOME 60-SOME BILLS, OF COURSE ALSO ACCORDING TO THE ACLU.

SO FIRST OF ALL, I WANTED TO ASK YOU, WHAT ARE THE SCOPE OF THESE BILLS?

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT THESE BILLS WOULD DO?

>> IN TRUTH, THE SCOPE OF THESE BILLS, I THINK WHAT WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT THE SCOPE IS INCREASING AND BECOMING EVER MORE AGGRESSIVE.

SO WE STARTED OUT ESSENTIALLY IN THE TIME PERIOD THAT YOU LAID OUT WITH THE ANTI-TRANS SPORTS BILLS AND THE ANTI-TRANS BILLS THAT WOULD BLOCK PEOPLE ACCESS TO MEDICAL CARE FOR TRANS YOUTH, WHAT PEOPLE CALLED GENDER-AFFIRMING CARE.

THAT KIND OF WHERE THE UNIVERSE OF THINGS STARTED.

AND WHAT WE'VE WITNESSED OVER THE PAST YEAR IS A FAR MORE AGGRESSIVE AND WIDENING REACHING RANGE OF BILLS.

THAT INCLUDES MANDATING THE USE OF CERTAIN PRONOUNS THAT ARE ON YOUR BIRTH CERTIFICATE.

THAT WOULD BAN DRAG PERFORMANCES.

AND IN SOME CASES WOULD MAKE IT ILLEGAL FOR TRANS PEOPLE TO WALK DOWN THE STREET IF THE CLOTHING OF THEIR GENDER IDENTITY BY EXTENSION AND INCREASINGLY, A BAN ON THE MEDICAL CARE FOR ALL TRANS PEOPLE, INCLUDING ADULTS.

AND NOW THE MOST RECENTLY IN FLORIDA, A BILL THAT WOULD LEGALIZE FAMILY SEPARATION IN THE CASES OF PARENTS WHO ACCEPT THEIR TRANS CHILDREN.

WHAT WE'VE SEEN IS A DRAMATIC INCREASE IN THE AGGRESSIVENESS AND RANGE OF THESE BILLS.

>> HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS IN THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT PEOPLE OFTEN INTRODUCE, YOU KNOW, ATTENTION-GETTING BILLS INTO STATE LEGISLATURES, AND THE VAST MAJORITY OF THEM NEVER SEE THE LIGHT OF DAY, YOU KNOW.

PEOPLE WANT THE HEADLINES, BUT THEY DON'T NECESSARILY FIGHT FOR THE RESULTS.

BUT GIVEN THE, THAT THE SORT OF DRAMATIC INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF BILLS, THE TYPES OF BILLS, THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT THEY ADDRESS, HOW TO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS?

HOW DO YOU SEE THIS MOVEMENT?

>> WELL, I THINK THE THING TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THIS CONVERSATION IS THAT WE DIDN'T GET HERE BY ACCIDENT.

THE FACT IS THAT TRANS PEOPLE ARE ONLY 1.5% OF THE POPULATION.

A TINY GROUP OF PEOPLE.

BUT HAVE FOUND OUR WAY INTO THE CENTER OF THE DEBATE IN AMERICAN POLITICAL LIGHT IN THIS MOMENT.

AND THAT'S BECAUSE OF A ROUGHLY DECADES-LONG PLAN EXECUTED BY THE FAR RIGHT AND CHRISTIAN NATIONALS MOVEMENT TO BRING US TO THIS POINT OF THE CONVERSATION.

YOU DON'T GO FROM A HANDFUL OF BILLS IN 2019 TO HUNDREDS OF BILLS IN TWO YEARS WITHOUT THERE BEING A PRETTY WIDE-RANGING INFRASTRUCTURE THAT INCLUDES NON-PROFIT ORGANIZATIONS, THINK TANKS, POLITICAL GROUPS, RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS, BILLIONAIRES FUNDING IT AND A RELIGIOUS IDEOLOGY MOTIVATING IT.

SO I THINK WHAT WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT WE'VE GOTTEN HERE NOT BY ACCIDENT BUT BY DESIGN.

>> AND HERE YOU'RE DRAWING A LOT OF THE WORK THAT YOU'VE BEEN DOING OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS AS THE CREATOR OF TRANS SLASH MEDIA, WHICH IS A NON-PROFIT NEWS ORGANIZATION, AS YOU PUT IT ON YOUR WEBSITE, IT PRODUCE CONTENT TO SHIFT THE HOSTILITY TOWARD TRANS PEOPLE IN THE U.S. TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW YOU STARTED REPORTING ON WHAT YOU SHE IN THIS MOVEMENT AND WHAT ARE SORT OF THE PILLARS OF IT?

>> WHAT I SAW IN 2020, THE BILLS IN ALABAMA, THE FIRST ONE I NOTICED WAS IN IDAHO.

MY EARS PIQUED UP.

WHEN YOU SEE THE SAME TYPE OF THING APPEAR IN A TOTALLY DIFFERENT PART OF THE COUNTRY WITH A TOTALLY DIFFERENT SET OF ACTORS, THAT MAY POINT TO THE FACT THAT THAT'S NOT JUST A COINCIDENCE, RIGHT?

AS THE LINES OF THE MATRIX GOES, I BELIEVE IN COINCIDENCE.

I JUST DON'T TRUST COINCIDENCE.

AND SO I PUT TOGETHER A TEAM OF INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISTS, AND WE GIST JUST STARTED DIGGING AND ASKING THE QUESTIONS ABOUT WHO ARE THE PEOPLE BEHIND THESE AND WHERE ARE THEY?

AND NOT ONLY DID WE COME UP WITH LINK, SIMILARITIES, BUT THEN WE BASICALLY UNCOVERED WHAT WE CAN ONLY DESCRIBE AS THE ANTI-TRANS MACHINE, THAT'S WHY WE LABELED THE INVESTIGATIVE SERIES THAT, BECAUSE THERE IS AN INTERLOCKING GROUP OF ORGANIZATIONS AND SYSTEMS THAT ARE DRIVING.

THEY'RE IN CONVERSATION WITH EACH OTHER, COORDINATION WITH EACH OTHER, TESTING THESE BILLS.

PARTS OF THEIR UNIVERSE HAVE FOCUS GROUP ISSUES.

ONE OF THE WAYS THEY'VE LANDED ON TRANS YOOUS ISUTH IS BECAUSEE FOCUS GROUPS IN 2018.

WHAT WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND AGAIN IS THE VASTNESS OF THE INTENT HERE TO DRIVE THE CONVERSATION ABOUT TRANS PEOPLE ALONG SPECIFIC PARAMETERS INTO PUBLIC LIFE.

THERE'S NOTHING, THERE'S NOTHING ORGANIC ABOUT THIS CONVERSATION.

>> YOU ALSO HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN LAWS TARGETING TRANS PEOPLE AT THE MEDICAL CARE THAT THEY CAN RECEIVE, THE INSTITUTIONS OR, YOU KNOW, PLACES, PUBLIC PLACES THAT THEY CAN USE OR BE SEEN.

YOU ALSO DRAW A CONNECTION TO ANTI-ABORTION LAWS OR LAWS THAT WOULD RESTRICT ABORTION RIGHTS THAT ARE ALSO VERY MUCH A PART OF THE POLITICAL MOMENT.

WHAT'S THE RELATION THAT YOU SEE THERE?

>> IT'S THE SAME GROUPS.

IT'S THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL AND FOCUS ON THE FAMILY.

THE RIGHT WING MOVEMENT HAS DECIDED TO PUT A LOT OF THEIR WEIGHT A BEHIND THESE ISSUE.

AND FOR THEM, CONTROL OVER BODIES, PEOPLE'S ABILITY TO CONTROL THEIR BODIES IS REALLY ABOUT CONTROL OVER SOCIETY.

AND IT IS BECAUSE, AND, YOU KNOW, WE'RE REALLY UNCOMFORTABLE TALKING ABOUT THIS IN MAINSTREAM MEDIA OR IN JOURNALISM, IT'S MOTIVATED BY VERY SPECIFIC RELIGIOUS IDEOLOGY, AND RELIGIOUS EXTENSIONALISM THAT THEY BELIEVE HAS TO DOMINATE PUBLIC LIFE IN AMERICA.

AND A PART OF THAT IS THE EXCLUSION OF ANYTHING THAT IS NOT BIBLICALLY SANCTIONED, ANYTHING OUTSIDE OF THE GENDER BINARY AND PATRIARCHY WHICH FOR THEM IS DEFINED BY GOD IS ACTUALLY A DEEP PROBLEM FOR THE AMERICAN BODY POLITIC THAT THEY WANT TO RECTIFY.

AND SO IT'S THE EXACT SAME GROUPS THAT ARE DRIVING AND HAVE BEEN DRIVING THE ANTI-ABORTION MOVEMENT THAT ARE DRIVING THE ANTI-TRANS MOVEMENT, AND THAT IS BECAUSE THAT UNLIKE PROGRESSIVES OR SO-CALLED PROGRESSIVES OR EVEN LIBERALS WHO SEE THESE ISSUES AS SEPARATE, THEY VERY MUCH UNDERSTAND THE WAY THAT THEY LINK AROUND THE ISSUE OF BODILY AUTONOMY, AND IT'S WHY THEY ARE PUSHING SO HARD ON THEM, AND IT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY WE'RE SEEING THE MIGRATION OF ANTI-ABORTION TACTICS INTO ANTI-TRANS TACTICS SUCH AS TARGETING DOCTORS, BEING OUTSIDE OF GENDER-AFFIRMING CLINIC, SHOUTING AT PEOPLE AS THEY GO IN.

ALL OF THOSE THINGS STARTED TO MIGRATE FROM THE ANTI-ABORTION INTO THE ANTI-TRANS MOVEMENT BECAUSE OF THESE LINKS.

>> THE OTHER INTERESTING THING WHICH YOU'VE POINTED OUT WHICH I'M NOT SURE OTHER JOURNALISTS HAVE KIND OF MADE THIS CONNECTION, SOME HAVE, IS THAT THERE REALLY IS ALONG THE RISE OF THIS MOVEMENT AGAINST ABORTION RIGHTS HAS ALSO BEEN THE RISE OF AUTOCRATIC MOVEMENTS AROUND THE WORLD.

AND MANY OF THEM ARE DEEPLY CONCERNED WITH GENDER NORMS, WITH ACCESS TO ABORTION.

FOR EXAMPLE, LIKE IN POLAND FOR EXAMPLE, THE PUSH TO SORT OF MORE AUTOCRATIC MEANS OF GOVERNMENT HAS ALSO COINCIDED WITH THE PUSH TOWARD REDISTRESTRICTING ABORTION.

WE'VE SEEN THIS IN LOTS OF PLACES AROUND THE WORLD.

WHAT IS YOUR THEORY OF THE CASE HERE?

WHY DOES THEIR SEEMIS SEEM TO B CONCERN OF AUTOCRATS?

>> HAD A LOT OF CONCERN ABOUT THIS AND -- >> A WRITER AND FREQUENT GUEST ON THIS SHOW, AND ACUTE CHRONICLER OF RUSSIAN POLITICS, YOU WERE SAYING?

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

YOU CAN ALMOST LOOK AT THE RISE OF AUTHORITARIANISM WITHIN PUTIN'S REGIME, SPECIFICALLY AS YOU MOVE INTO THE SECOND INTO THE THIRD TERM, WITH THIS INCREASING AGGRESSIVE FOCUS ON GENDER AND GENDER IDENTITY.

AGAIN, LINKING THESE TWO ISSUES.

AND I THINK THAT THERE ARE A COUPLE OF THINS HGS HERE.

I THINK ONE IS EMPHASIZING THE MASCULINITY OF THE STATE, THE POWER OF THE STATE.

THE SECOND THING IT DOES IS ALLOWS AUTHORITARIANS TO ACTUALLY BEGIN TO ROAD TEST HOW FAR THEY CAN GO IN THEIR PUSH FOR AUTHORITARIANISM.

WHAT LAWS ARE THEY GOING TO BE ABLE TO DO?

WHAT EXECUTIVE ACTIONS?

HOW AGGRESSIVE CAN THE POLICE BE AND THE JUDICIARY.

IT ALLOWS THEM TO EXPERIMENT WITH THE COCKTAIL THAT THEY'LL USE WITHIN THEIR AUTHORITARIAN REGIME.

THE THIRD THING THAT IT DOES IS IT CREATES, THEN, ALSO AMONGST PEOPLE A LEGITIMACY FOR STATE ACTION THAT IS MUSCULAR AND PUNITIVE.

WHAT I DO MEAN BY THAT?

BY TURNING ON A GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT CAN YOU EASILY STIGMATIZE, ISOLATE AND DEMONIZE, YOU CREATE A RATIONALE FOR WHY THIS MUSCULAR STATE IS NECESSARY.

RIGHT?

BECAUSE YOU NEED TO BE PROTECTED INTEREST THE FROM THESE PEOPLE THAT YOU FEAR AND ARE A THREAT TO EVERYTHING THAT YOU HOLD DEAR.

I THINK THOSE ARE SOME OF THE ESSENTIAL INGREDIENTS AS TO WHY WE CAN CHART THE RISE OF AUTHORITARIANISM WITH A FOCUS ON GENDER AND GENDER IDENTITY.

AND IT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY ALARM BELLS, I THINK, ARE SCREAMING HERE IN AMAMERICA JUS.

>> THERE ARE TRANS WOMEN LIKE LAVERNE COX AND MICHELA RODRIGUEZ AND JANET MOCK WHO HAVE BECOME HUGE STARS ON WELL-RECEIVED, CRITICALLY ACCLAIMED, YOU KNOW, PROGRAMS, AND DIRECTING, PRODUCING, ACTING, YOU KNOW, WINNING A LOT OF ACCOLADES FOR THEIR WORK.

AND I'M JUST WONDERING, HOW DO YOU KIND OF RECONCILE OR HOW DO YOU SEE THIS?

ON THE ONE HAND YOU SIGH THE R SEE THE RISE IN POP CULTURE, THE APPRECIATION AND THEN THE COUNTER MOVEMENT IN THE POLITICAL WORLD.

>> YEAH.

ONE OF THE REASONS FOR THE GENDER BATHROOM BACKLASH.

IT WAS WRESTLING WITH THESE THINGS WE WERE SEEING PLAY OUT BEFORE US IN REAL TIME.

THE PHENOMENON THAT WE'VE BEEN WRESTLING WITH.

THE RISE OF THE FOCUS AND THE PUNITIVE NATURE OF GENDER IDENTITY IN THE COUNTRY AND WHAT YOU SAY, JUST THE TREMENDOUS POWER AND BRILLIANCE OF TRANS PEOPLE, BLACK TRANS WOMEN IN PARTICULAR, SHINING THROUGH.

AND SOME REALLY POWERFUL WAYS.

SO I THINK ONE NEEDS TO LIVE AND UNDERSTAND THAT CONTRADICTION AND TO UNDERSTAND THAT BOTH ARE TRUE AT THE SAME TIME.

AND I THINK THAT IT'S BECAUSE THERE'S ACTUALLY A REAL DEBATE.

THERE'S A REAL CONTEST BETWEEN THESE TWO VISIONS OF WHERE TRANS PEOPLE BELONG IN SOCIETY, AND WE ACTUALLY DON'T KNOW HOW THAT'S GOING TO PLAY OUT.

IT'S AN OPEN QUESTION, WHICH OF THESE TWO VISIONS IS GOING TO SUCCEED.

I THINK THE THIRD THING THAT I WOULD POINT TO, MICHELLE, WHAT CAN HAPPEN IN ENTERTAINMENT IS KIND OF A PREVIEW OF WHAT CAN HAPPEN IN THE RHYEST OF SOCIETY.

BUT IT'S NOT A FOREGONE CONCLUSION.

SO I THINK FOR INSTANCE ABOUT SIDNEY POITIER IN THE 1960s AT A TIME OF SEGREGATION.

EVEN BEFORE WE MADE A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF PROGRESS LATER IN THE '60s, RIGHT?

THE RISE OF HIS STARDOM.

THE RISE OF SO MANY OTHERS AT THAT TIME, LENA HORNE THAT PREVIEWED WHERE SOCIETY WAS GOING, BUT THERE WAS A LOT OF TURBULENCE THAT WAS TO FOLLOW, A LOT OF VIOLENCE THAT WAS TO FOLLOW.

AND A LOT OF THINGS WHERE THERE WAS THIS CONTINUED CONTENTION ABOUT THE ROLE OF BLACK PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY THAT WE STILL HAVEN'T ANSWERED.

I PEOPLE IN BLACK PEOPLE STILL ARE ABLE TO DOMINATE IN SPORTS AND ENTERTAINMENT, BUT STILL THAT BREAK THROUGH ISN'T MIRRORED BY THE REST OF SOCIETY.

SO I THINK WE HAVE TO LEARN TO LIVE WITH THESE CONTRADICTIONS DURING THIS MOMENT.

>> COULD I ASK YOU A PERSONAL QUESTION?

>> PLEASE.

>> HOW, HAS THE WAY YOU'VE STARTED TO MOVE THROUGH THE WORLD CHANGED IN RECENT, I DON'T KNOW WHAT TIME FRAME YOU'D PICK.

JUST WHEN THERE'S THIS BROADER CONTEXT OF LEGAL HOSTILITY, AT LEAST SORT OF ATTEMPTS AT CREATING LEGAL FRAME WORKS THAT WOULD RESTRICT WHERE YOU CAN GO TO SCHOOL OR HOW YOU CAN MOVE THROUGH THE WORLD, HOW YOU CAN, WHAT YOU CAN DO, WHAT CAN YOU PLAY, YOU KNOW, WHAT SPORTS YOU CAN PLAY, HAS THAT CHANGED YOUR LIFE?

A WAY THAT YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE TALKING ABOUT?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, I WOULD SAY A COUPLE OF THINGS.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, ON THE ONE HAND, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I DO BECAUSE I TALK TO TRANS PEOPLE AND TRANS PARENTS ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY IS THAT YOU KNOW, INCREASINGLY THERE ARE POLITICAL REFUGEES INSIDE THE UNITED STATES.

THAT IS TO SAY THAT THERE ARE FAMILIES AND INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE FLEEING STATES IN THIS COUNTRY BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE GOING TO BE AND THEY HAVE STARTED TO BE PERSECUTED FOR BEING WHO THEY ARE OR BEING LOVING PARENTS.

AND THAT'S VERY REAL.

AND FOR ME, THE IMPACT PERSONALLY IS TWO FOLD.

ONE IS I THINK TWICE ABOUT WHAT STATE THAT I GO TO.

NOT BECAUSE I CAN GENERALLY NAVIGATE SOCIETY JUST FINE.

BUT IF SOMEONE RECOGNIZES ME FROM DOING THIS PROGRAM OR OTHER THINGS, AND, YOU KNOW, IMNAET BATHRI'M IN A BATHROOM IN A STATE THAT HAS LAWS, I DO THINK TWICE ABOUT WHERE I'M GOING TO GO AND HOW I'M GOING TO SPEND MY TIME IN THIS COUNTRY.

THE SECOND THING I WOULD SAY IS THAT IT IS NOT, I LIVE IN NEW YORK.

BUT AND PEOPLE WOULD GO, OH, WELL, IT'S FINE THERE.

BUT JUST THIS WEEKEND, OUTSIDE THE LGBTQ CENTER HERE THERE WAS A A PROUD BOYS PROTEST.

WE HAD INCREASING PROUD BOYCE ANDBUY BOYS AND OATH KEEPERS.

IT'S GIVING PEOPLE LICENSE TO TARGET US IN THESE NOR AGGRESSIVE AND VIOLENT WAYS, IT'S IMPACTED ME IN THE CITY WHERE I LIVE.

>> AND LET ME WHEEL IT AROUND NOW, AND PUT YOU ON THE SPOT.

IS THERE ANY PART OF YOU THAT FEELS SOME SYMPATHY FOR PEOPLE WHO JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS IN AND FEEL THAT THIS IS CONTRARY TO THE WORLD AS THEY UNDERSTOOD IT?

YOU KNOW, THEY WERE TAUGHT A BINARY, THEY'RE MAN, THEY'RE A WOMAN.

THEY DON'T FLOKNOW ANY TRANS PEE TAN K AND IT KIND OF UPSET THEIRS CONCEPT OF THE WAY THE WORLD SHOULD BE AND THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH THAT.

>> I THINK WHAT MAKES ME UPSET IS THE NATURAL CONFUSION OR UNDERSTANDING THAT PEOPLE HAVE IS BEING MANIPULATED.

I DON'T THINK THERE'S A TRANS PERSON IN EXISTENCE WHO MINDS A CONVERSATION ABOUT WELL, WHAT IS THIS, HOW DID YOU BECOME TO BE?

AND I DON'T UNDERSTAND.

SO I DON'T THINK THAT THAT'S, YOU KNOW, THAT THAT'S ISSUE.

I THINK THE PROBLEM IS THAT THAT NATURAL CURIOSITY AND MISUNDERSTANDING IS BEING WEAPONIZED BY THIS WIDER GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT I SPOKE ABOUT WHO HAVE MALINTIENT.

AND THAT'S WHAT'S SO DANGEROUS ABOUT THIS MOMENT AND THAT'S WHAT'S SO ENRAGING.

AND I THINK ONCE PEOPLE GET TO KNOW US THEY GENERALLY ACCEPT US.

I MEAN, THAT'S, THAT'S THE REALITY.

AND BECAUSE I KNOW THAT IN OUR STORY OF BECOMING OURSELVES IS SOMETHING THAT ALL HUMAN BEINGS RECOGNIZE, THIS DESIRE AND NEED TO FULFILL WHO WE ARE AND WHO WE HAVE ALWAYS KNOWN THAT WE ARE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> AND NEXT, TO THE FULL-SCALE ASSAULT ON WOMEN'S RIGHTS IN AFGHANISTAN.

WHERE VACANT CHAIRS MARK THE BEGINNING OF THE SCHOOL YEAR, BECAUSE GIRLS REMAIN BARRED FROM HIGHER EDUCATION.

A CASCADE OF BANS BEGAN A YEAR AGO.

THE TALIBAN FIRST CLOSING OFF GIRLS' ACCESS TO SECONDARY SCHOOL AND THEN TO UNIVERSITIES.

THAT'S DESPITE THEIR ASSURANCES THAT THEY WOULD NOT BE DENIED THE SCHOOLING.

THE U.N. CHILDREN'S AGENCY UNICEF IS CALLING ONCE MORE FOR THESE TALIBAN EDICTS TO BE REVERSED SO THEY CAN BUILD SOCIAL SKILLS AND SO THE GIRLS CAN GET THE EDUCATION THEY NEED FOR THE GOOD OF THEIR COUNTRY AS WELL.

I REACHED ONE AFGHAN WOMAN WHO'S LIVING THESE DARK TIMES, SHE IS A 18-YEAR-OLD FROM THE NORTH.

HERE IS WHAT SHE TOLD ME.

>> SO, UM, BEING A GIRL IN AFGHANISTAN HAS ALWAYS BEEN CHALLENGING.

AND TODAY REALLY FEELS LIKE THERE IS SOMETHING HAPPENING TO US.

DESPITE HOW, HOW MUCH WE STRUGGLE AND DESPITE HOW MANY MENTAL HEALTH DISEASES WE ARE GOING THROUGH DAILY, THERE ALWAYS HAS BEEN A FAIR IN OUR HEARTS, LIKE WE AREN'T ABLE TO SEE A CERTAIN FUTURE FOR OURSELVES.

TODAY MY HEART REALLY FELT BROKEN KNOWING THAT BOYS ARE ALLOWED TO GO TO SCHOOL AND CONTINUE THEIR EDUCATION, AND THERE'S ALWAYS A DREAM AND HOPE FOR THEM.

BUT THERE IS ALWAYS UNCERTAINTY WHEN IT COMES TO GIRLS.

AND IT REALLY FEELS LIKE UNFAIR SEEING THAT I AM TREATED DIFFERENTLY BECAUSE OF MY BODY DIFFERENCE.

THOUGH I'VE DONE NOTHING WRONG.

I'M OKAY WITH WHATEVER THE RESTRICTION THEY HAVE, BUT I ONLY WANT MY RIGHTS TO EDUCATION.

I WANT TO COMPLETE MY HIGH SCHOOL, WHICH ALWAYS HAS BEEN MY DREAM, AND I WANT TO PURSUE MY EDUCATION.

BUT WHEN YOU SEE THAT OTHERS ARE CHO CHO CHOOSING INSTEAD OF SKILLS, IT'S HEARTBREAKING.

IT'S NOT EQUAL.

NOT EQUAL FOR ALL GENDERS, ONLY FOR FEMALE.

>> AND WHAT DOES IT DO TO YOUR SENSE OF HOPE?

>> ACTUALLY, TO BE HONEST, FOR ME PERSONALLY, THERE'S ALWAYS SOMETHING, LIKE, LIKE A HOPELESS FEELING INSIDE MY HEART.

NOT KNOWING WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT.

BECAUSE I ALWAYS AM AFRAID LIKE DARKNESS IS GOING TO BE HAPPENING FOR MY FUTURE, NOT ONLY FOR ME BUT THE NEXT GENERATION.

YOU KNOW, GIRLS AND WOMEN ARE ALWAYS LEFT BEHIND, AND THINK ARE NOT ON THE, THEIR RIGHTS ARE ALWAYS TAKEN, AND THEIR, YOU KNOW, THEY DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO PARTICIPATION.

THEY'RE NOT HEARD.

AND I'M ALWAYS LIKE HOPELESS SEEING ALL THIS HAPPENING TO US.

AND MOST HEARTBREAKING PART IS LIKE WE SPEAK UP, BUT NO ONE IS HEARING THAT.

AND NO CERTAIN ACTIONS ARE TAKEN.

SO ALL, YOU KNOW, CONSIDERING ALL THESE THINGS REALLY GAVE US AN UNCERTAIN AND HOPELESS FEELING.

>> YOUR VOICE IS GOING TO BE HEARD, AND WE ARE GOING TO MAKE SURE THAT IT IS, AND SO THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

JUST VERY, VERY QUICKLY, ARE YOU LEARNING IN SECRET?

IN HIDING?

DO YOU GET ANY EDUCATION AT ALL RIGHT NOW?

>> I'M TRYING TO GET, YOU KNOW, THIS OPPORTUNITY, BUT YES, AS YOU SAID, IT HAS BEEN, REALLY NOT, REALLY NOT FEELING LIKE OKAY SHARING THAT.

>> NO.

>> AS I SAID, THERE'S RISK TO MY SAFETY IF I SHARE THAT I'M LIKE PURSUING MY EDUCATION, SO THERE ALWAYS HAS BEEN, LIKE, OPPORTUNITIES THAT I'M TRYING TO PURSUE FOR MY EDUCATION.

>> WELL, WE WISH YOU REALLY GOOD LUCK.

AND THE WORLD DOES KNOW ABOUT YOUR PLIGHT.

THANKS FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> AND HER MOTHER IS A TEACHER IN A HIGH SCHOOL, AND SHE, TOO, CAN'T WORK.

WHEN I VISITED KABUL LAST YEAR, I SAW THAT MANY YOUNG WOMEN JUST LIKE HER ARE TRYING TO GET AN EDUCATION ANYPLACE THEY CAN.

TAKE A LOOK.

WEDNESDAY MORNING IN KABUL AND WE'RE GOING TO GIRLS SCHOOL, THROUGH THESE PLASTIC CURTAINS AND PAST PRYING EYES.

YES, THIS FASHION STUDIO HAS BECOME AN ALTERNATE EDUCATION FACILITY, SINCE THE TALIBAN STOPPED GIRLS FROM ATTENDING GOVERNMENT HIGH SCHOOL.

THIS 17-YEAR-OLD WANTED TO BE A DOCTOR.

NOW SHE'S LEARNING TO BE A DRESSMAKER.

WE'RE FEELING VERY BAD, SHE TELLS US.

GIRLS ARE NOT ABLE TO GO TO SCHOOL, STAYING HOME, DOING NOTHING.

WE HOPE THAT THIS WILL CHANGE OUR LIVES SO WE CAN BE SELF-SUFFICIENT, HAVE A PROFESSION, LEARN, EARN MONEY TO SUPPORT OURSELVES AND OUR FAMILY.

NETTA NETTA WANTED TO AND PROFESSIONAL SOCCER PLAYER.

DID YOU EVER IMAGINE THIS WOULD HAPPEN TO YOU?

THAT YOU WOULD BE PREVENTED FROM GOING TO SCHOOL?

[SPEAKING NON-ENGLISH] NO, NEVER, WE TRIED OUR BEST FOR OUR FUTURE, BUT IT'S A DARK ONE NOW, BECAUSE WE'RE KEPT AWAY FROM OUR SCHOOLS.

THAT WAS ALMOST A WHOLE YEAR AGO.

AGAIN, THEY ARE BANNED FROM GOING TO SCHOOL THIS NEW SCHOOL YEAR.

OBSTACLES TO EDUCATION ARE NOT THE ONLY CHALLENGES FACED BY AFGHAN WOMEN, A TRIFECTA OF ECONOMIC, HUMANITARIAN AND ENVIRONMENTAL DISASTERS HAVE ALSO STRUCK THAT COUNTRY.

JUST THIS WEEK A POWERFUL EARTHQUAKE HIT NORTHERN AFGHANISTAN, KILLING AT LEAST 13 PEOPLE.

SO JOINING ME NOW IS THE AFGHAN ACTIVIST AND SCHOLAR DR. NAMAD.

YOU LISTENED TO ALL THAT, YOU HEARD THE VOICE TODAY OF A YOUNG 18-YEAR-OLD WHO CAN'T FINISH HER HIGH SCHOOL.

YOU SAW THOSE OTHER WOMEN WHO I SPOKE TO IN KABUL, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY HAVING TO MAKE DO AND NO NOT BEING ABLE TO REALIZE THEIR DREAMS.

DO YOU THINK THAT THIS HAS ANY CHANCE OF BEING REVERSED?

>> IT'S A VERY DISAPPOINTING SITUATION.

THE TALIBAN DECLARED THIS DECREE OF BANNING GIRLS FROM EDUCATION UNTIL A SECOND DECREE, A SECOND ORDER THAT COMES, MEANING THAT IT WILL REVERSE IT.

AND THEY ASKED FOR TIME.

AND NOW THE TIME IS UP.

IT'S ONE AND A HALF YEAR, NEARLY TWO YEARS.

AND THERE IS NO SIGN OF ANY ACTION TAKEN.

ANY SIGN OF HOPE OTHER THAN FAKE PROMISES BY THE AUTHORITIES IN KABUL.

AND SAYING THAT WAIT FOR IT.

DON'T RUSH.

AND OTHER THAN DECEIVING PEOPLE BY SAYING THAT THEY ARE NOT AGAINST THE GIRLS' EDUCATION.

THEY NEED TIME.

HOW MUCH TIME DO YOU NEED?

IT'S THE FUTURE OF A GENERATION.

WE ALREADY LOST ONE BATCH OF GRADUATES LAST YEAR, MISS THERE HAD TIME TO MOVE FROM HIGH SCHOOL TO UNIVERSITY, SECONDARY SCHOOL TO HIGH SCHOOL.

WE ARE GOING TO MISS THE SAME FOR THE NEXT YEAR.

UNFORTUNATELY, THERE DOESN'T SEEM TO BE ANY SIGN OF CHANGES IN THEIR POLICIES AS IT SEEMS RIGHT NOW.

>> AND, AS YOU SAY, NOT BEING EDUCATED IMPACTS EVERYTHING.

A CASCADING EFFECT.

SAVE THE CHILDREN HAS SAID THAT 3 MILLION GIRL WHOSE WERE PREVIOUSLY ENROLLED IN SECONDARY SCHOOL HAVE BEEN DENIED THEIR RIGHT TO EDUCATION.

NOW YOU MENTION THE DECEPTION PERPETRATED BY AFGHAN'S CURRENT LEADERS WHO SAY THEY'RE NOT AGAINST GIRLS GOING TO SCHOOL.

JUST WAIT.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THE LEADER OF AFGHANISTAN AND KABUL TOLD ME IN MAY.

HERE'S WHAT HE SAID.

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT YOUNG GIRLS, SECONDARY SCHOOLGIRLS WILL BE ALLOWED TO GO TO SCHOOL HERE IN AFGHANISTAN?

[SPEAKING NON-ENGLISH] >> Translator: I WOULD LIKE TO PROVIDE SOME CLARIFICATION.

THERE IS NO ONE WHO OPPOSES EDUCATION FOR WOMAN.

AND ALREADY GIRLS ARE ALLOWED TO GO TO SCHOOL UP TO GRADE SIX.

AND ABOVE THAT GRADE.

THE WORK IS CONTINUING ON THE MECHANISM.

>> CAN YOU TELL US WHEN THAT WILL HAPPEN?

>> Translator: WHAT I AM SAYING TO YOU IS THAT VERY SOON YOU WILL HEAR VERY GOOD NEWS ABOUT THIS ISSUE, GOD WILLING.

>> OF COURSE YOU KNOW BETTER THAN ME THAT THAT NEWS HAS NOT BEEN GOOD, BECAUSE IT HASN'T COME AND NOTHING HAS CHANGED.

BUT THE REASON I'M PLAYING IT IS IN THE INTERIM, WHILE THE MOST POWERFUL AFGHAN TALIBAN LEADER RIGHT NOW BASED IN KABUL SAID THERE WAS, YOU KNOW, EVERYBODY IN THE TALIBAN MOVEMENT AGREED THAT GIRLS SHOULD BE EDUCATED WE NOW KNOW THAT THAT'S NOT TRUE.

THAT THE RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALIST LEADERSHIP IN KANDAHAR DOES NOT AGREE, AND THAT'S WHAT'S HOLDING IT UP.

THE QUESTION THAT I WANT TO ASK YOU IS, HACANI AND OTHERS HAVE COME OUT CRITICIZING THEM NOW.

THAT'S FIRST TIME WE'VE SEEN A KIND OF A SPLIT IN THE LEADERSHIP.

DO YOU THINK THAT'S IMPORTANT?

AND MIGHT THE KABUL GROUP WIN THIS BAT UNTIL >> KRISTIN, BASED ON MY OWN RESEARCH AND OBSERVATION, THIS DOESN'T SEEM A REALISTIC ONE.

IT'S MORE RHETORICAL, BECAUSE THE WHOLE POINT OF TALIBAN RULING RIGHT NOW IS THEIR AUTHORITY.

AND THE LEVEL OF POWER THAT CANADA KANDAHAR HAS, IS BEYOND HAQQANI, ANY GROUP OF LEADER WHO CLAIM TO BE DIFFERENT FROM THE OTHERS.

THE TALIBAN ARE SUCCESSFUL IN THEIR STRATEGY AND PR STRATEGY FROM THE TIME OF THE DOUHA AGREEMENT BY SAYING THEY HAVE CHANGED TO BRING THESE CHANGES.

BUT THEN WE REALIZE THAT CHANGES ARE NOT HAPPENING.

IT'S TRUE THAT PRIMARY EDUCATION IS ON.

IMAGINE IF THE PRIMARY EDUCATION WASN'T ON.

WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED.

BUT IT'S VERY UNFAIR THAT AT A TIME WHEN THE ENTIRE WORLD IS PROGRESSING SO FASTLY, INCLUDING SAUDI ARABIA, THE PLACE WHERE WE GO FOR PILGRIMAGE AS MUSLIMS, IS CHANGING AND KEEPING ON AND WOMEN, RULES THAT ARE SUPPORTIVE OF WOMEN.

AFGHANISTAN ISSIN GOING BACKWAR WHY?

WE'VE ASKED MANY TIMES.

>> I JUST WANTED TO ASK YOU, BECAUSE YOU MENTIONED THOSE OTHER COUNTRIES INCLUDING WHERE YOU GO TO MECCA.

WHY ARE THESE ISLAMIC COUNTRIES NOT BEING SUCCESSFUL TELLING THE TALIBAN THAT ACTUALLY WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS NOT ISLAMIC?

>> WELL, THE REASON FOR THAT IS BASICALLY, BECAUSE TALIBAN ARE NOT, AS THEY CLAIM AND APPEAR TO BE THE ISLAMIC, THE ONLY ISLAMIC POWER IN THE WORLD OR THE ONLY ISLAMIC ORDER IN THE WORLD, THE TALIBAN ARE MORE A POLITICAL AND MINISTRY GROUP THAT IS FOLLOWING A VERY SPECIFIC AGENDA.

AND THAT AGENDA HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE AGENDAS OF THE ISLAMIC COUNTRIES DEALING WITH THEIR OWN COUNTRY.

THAT'S AGENDA IS TO DO WITH PARTICULAR ISLAMIC OR INTERNATIONAL COUNTRIES FOR THEIR PARTICULAR GEOPOLITICAL MINISTRY INTEREST TO KEEP TALIBAN WHERE THEY ARE.

HOWEVER I WANTED TO VERY QUICKLY ALSO MENTION THAT THE WOMEN ARE NOT SURRENDERING TO THIS.

IT'S ALSO VERY IMPORTANT TO HIGHLIGHT THAT.

I SPEAK ON DAILY BASIS WITH TENS OF WOMEN ACROSS AFGHANISTAN.

AND THEY ARE DEFYING IT, BY EITHER CREATING ONLINE OPPORTUNITIES OR CREATING, AT LEAST GIVING SOME LEVEL OF ASSURANCE, BECAUSE THE SUICIDE IS INCREASING.

AND THERE IS THAT RESISTANCE TAKING SHAPE THAT PROBABLY ONE WAY OR ANOTHER PRESSURIZE THE GOVERNMENT FOR THEIR OWN SURVIVAL THEY HAVE TO BRING SOME CHANGES.

>> AND ACTUALLY, BEHESHTA MENTIONED THAT.

>> FOR MORE, I'M JOINED BIT U.S. SPECIAL ENVOY FOR WOMEN AND GIRLS COMING TO US FROM THE STATE DEPARTMENT IN WASHINGTON.

SO RETHAT, NA, WELCOME TO THE P. YOU HEARD WHAT THE PROFESSOR SAID, AND THAT IS THE RESISTANCE OF THE GIRLS AND WOMEN THERE.

WHAT IS COMING ACROSS YOUR DESK IF ?

WHAT DO YOU UNDERSTAND ABOUT HOW THESE WOMEN, SECONDARY AGE AND UNIVERSITY AGE AND OLDER, OBVIOUSLY, ARE TRYING TO FIGHT BACK?

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, CHRISTIANE, FIRST, FOR HAVING ME ON THE PROGRAM.

AND FOR THE WAY THAT YOU'RE FRAMING THE ISSUE.

I THINK TOO OFTEN AFGHAN WOMEN ARE PRESENTED AS VICTIMS, AND YOU ARE PUTTING LIGHT ON THE FACT THAT AFGHAN WOMEN ARE LEADERS, AND THEY ARE RESILIENT AND FIGHTING BACK.

THE WORLD NEED THE TO UNDERSTAND THAT TO COUNTER THE NARRATIVE THAT THE SITUATION UPON WOMEN IS HOPELESS.

AFGHAN WOMEN ARE ASKING US, NOT ONLY TO PUSH BACK AGAINST THE TALIBAN, BUT TO MOBILIZE AND SUPPORT THEM IN BOTH CONCRETE TERMS AND VERY SPECIFIC WAYS, BECAUSE WHAT THEY, WHEN THEY SAY THAT WE HAVE GONE SILENT, THEY SEE THE STATEMENTS, BUT WHAT THEY'RE ASKING FOR US TO DO IS TO RECOGNIZE THEIR LEADERSHIP, TO IDENTIFY WHERE WE CAN SUPPORT THEM AND TO PUT THAT SUPPORT TO WORK.

>> MM-HM.

RENA, DO YOU BUY ANY NOTION OF A SPLIT?

I MEAN OTHERS HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT THE FACT THAT HAQQANI, THE MOST POWERFUL LEADER, REALLY, IN TERMS OF MILITIA POWER AND ALL THE REST OF IT AND OTHERS IN KABUL ARE SAYING TO THE KANDAHAR GROUP OPENLY NOW THAT THIS IS A MISTAKE, WE DON'T AGREE WITH YOUR POLICY ON EDUCATION, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT WILL HAVE ANY IMPACT?

>> I DO BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE TALIBAN RIGHT NOW WHO ARE FRUSTRATED BECAUSE THEY VIEW THIS, IT'S NOT AS IDEOLOGICAL AS THOSE LOOKING AT THEIR OWN LIABILITY, THEY FEEL THIS WILL IMPERIL THEIR LEADERSHIP AND LEAD TO THEIR COLLAPSE.

THEY'VE WATCHED HISTORY IN THE LAST FOUR DECADES, AND THEY SEE THAT WHEN, WHEN AUTHORITIES DEFY THE WISHES OF THE PEOPLE, AT LEAST WHEN THEY SEE 50% OF THE POPULATION IS NOT ALLOWED TO WORK, IS NOT ALLOWED TO GET EDUCATED, AT LEAST ECONOMIC COLLAPSE.

SO FOR THAT REASON THERE ARE SOME ELEMENTS WITHIN THE TALIBAN LEADERSHIP THAT ARE PUSHING FOR A DIFFERENT DIRECTION, BUT THAT SPLIT RIGHT NOW I WOULD SAY IS MEANINGLESS.

UNTIL WE SEE ANY TYPE OF CONCRETE IMPACT.

IT'S, YOU KNOW, IT'S AS SHE SAID, IT'S RHETORICAL.

>> WHAT CAN THE U.S. DO?

YOU'RE VERY, VERY, YOU KNOW, DEEPLY INVOLVED.

I KNOW THE UNITED STATES PULLED OUT AND BROUGHT BACK THE TALIBAN, AND HERE'S WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW.

WHAT IS THE U.S.

TRYING TO DO?

AND WHAT DO YOU KNOW TO BE THE STATE OF THE ECONOMY THERE RIGHT NOW?

>> THE U.S. IS WORKING ON A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT FRONTS.

ON THE DIPLOMATIC FRONT THERE HAS BEEN ENGAGEMENT BY MYSELF, BY REPRESENTATIVE TOM WEST AMONG OTHERS, WITH THE TALIBAN, WHERE WE'VE MADE VERY CLEAR THAT WHAT THEY WANT, THEY WANT SANCTION RELIEF.

THEY WANT ENGAGEMENT AT HIGHER LEVELS.

THEY WANT STEPS TOWARD RECOGNITION INCLUDING GAINING A U.N. SEAT.

THEY WANT ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, AND ALL THOSE FRONTS, WE'VE SAID THERE'S GOING TO BE NO MOVEMENT IN THAT DIRECTION UNTIL THE TALIBAN RESPECT THE WISHES OF THEIR THE AFGHAN PEOPLE, PARTICULARLY THE RIGHTS OF WOMEN AND GIRLS.

WE ARE ALSO SUPPORTING, PUTTING ECONOMIC SUPPORT TO PREVENT AFGHANISTAN FROM FURTHER ECONOMIC DECLINE.

THE U.S. CONTINUES TO BE THE LARGEST DONOR IN THE WORLD TO PROVIDE, TO SUPPORT HUMANITARIAN RELIEF, AND, YOU KNOW, IT IS A CONTEXT IN WHICH WE ARE FACING ONE OF THE WORST HUMANITARIAN SITUATIONS.

>> YEAH.

>> AS WELL AS THE WORST HUMAN RIGHT THE SITUATIONS.

>> A COUNTRY IS UNDER COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT.

THE U.S. SAYS 97% OF AFGHANS LIVE IN POVERTY.

20 MILLION FACE ACUTE HUNGER, TWO-THIRDS OF THE POPULATION NEED AID TO SURVIVE.

THIS HAS GOTTEN WORSE SINCE I WAS THERE IN MAY.

AND I WAS SHOCKED BY THE LEVEL OF DESPERATION THAT I CAME ACROSS WHEREVER I LOOKED.

HERE'S A LITTLE CLIP OF THE REPORTING FROM BACK THEN.

>> UNDER A SCORCHING SUN, STANDING PATIENTLY FOR HOURS IN ORGANIZED LINES, HUNDREDS OF NEWLY-POOR AFGHANS WAIT FOR THEIR MONTHLY HANDOUT.

MEN ON ONE SIDE, WOMEN ON THE OTHER.

HERE THE U.N.'S WORLD FOOD PROGRAM IS DELIVERING CAC CASH ASSISTANCE.

THE EQUIVALENT OF $43 PER FAMILY.

THIS MAN IS THE COORDINATOR AND SAYS HE'S SEEN THE NEED EXPLODE AND RIGHT FROM THE START, THE STY STORIES ARE DIRE.

>> A WOMAN CAME TO ME AND TOLD ME THAT I WANT TO GIVE YOU MY SON FOR 16,000 AFGHANI, AND HE WAS, SHE WAS REALLY CRYING, AND THAT WAS THE WORST FEELING THAT I HAD IN MY LIFE.

>> SO, YOU SEE RIGHT THERE IN THE HORRENDOUS STORY, A RISE IN CHILD MARRIAGE AND FORCED MARRIAGES.

WE HEARD, YOU KNOW, THE PROFESSOR SAY THAT THEY ARE RESISTING.

BUT HOW LONG CAN THEY RESIST?

>> YEAH, THE SITUATION IS ABSOLUTELY DEVASTATING.

AND IT WAS MADE SO MUCH WORSE BY THE DECEMBER BAN ON WOMEN WORKING AT NGOs.

THIS ENDED UP COMPLETELY DISABLING WHAT THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS ON THE GROUND HAVE BEEN TRYING TO TODO TO ALLEVIAT THE SUFFERING.

WE HAVE BEEN WORKING TOGETHER WITH THE U.N. TO DO AS MUCH AS WE CAN, BUT WHEN YOU TAKE 50% OF THE POPULATION OUT OF WORKFORCE, PARTICULARLY THOSE THAT REACH WOMEN, THOSE THAT REACH THE MOST VULNERABLE COMMUNITIES, THOSE THAT REACH WOMEN-HEADED HOUSEHOLDS, YOU END UP PUTTING THAT POPULATION IN AN IMPOSSIBLE SITUATION.

AND THE TALIBAN IT THIS AT THE MOST DIFFICULT TIME, WITH THE HARSH WINTER THAT AFGHANS WERE FACING.

IT'S AN INDEFENSIBLE POSITION, AND IT'S ONE IN WHICH THE TALIBAN ARE INFLICTING 2R78D PUNISHMENT ON A POPULATION THAT DESERVES SO MUCH BETTER.

>> AND OBVIOUSLY CONFOUNDING THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY WHICH DOESN'T SEEM TO BE ABLE TO DO ANYTHING TO CHANGE IT.

WELL, WE'LL KEEP CHECKING IN WITH YOU, RENA AMIRI, THANK YOU.

SPECIAL ENVOY FROM THE STATE DEPARTMENT.

>>> AND FINALLY, WE NEED A MOMENT OF TRANQUILITY AND CONTEMPLATION.

A CAMERA TRAINED ON THE BEAUTIFUL CHERRY BLOSSOMS IN WEST POTOMAC PARK IN WASHINGTON, D.C.

THE SYMBOLIC SPRING FLOWER WHICH USHERS IN A TIME OF RENEWAL THAT ARRIVED EARLIER THAN EXPECTED THIS YEAR AFTER AN UNUSUALLY WARM WINTER.

IT SCRAMBLED THE BUDS, PR BUDS.

PEAK BLOOM IS COMING SOMETIME BETWEEN NOW AND SATURDAY.

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