MetroFocus: February 8, 2023

>>> AFTER A RECORD NUMBER OF PEOPLE WERE KILLED BY POLICE OFFICERS LAST YEAR, WILL THE DEADLY BEATING OF TYRE NICHOLS FINALLY TRANSFORM POLICING IN AMERICA?

TONIGHT, WE GO INSIDE THE MOVEMENT TO DIVERSIFIED DEPARTMENTS, OVERALL OFFICER TRAINING AND ROOT OUT RACISM IN LAW ENFORCEMENT AS "METROFOCUS" STARTS RIGHT NOW.

♪♪ >> THIS IS "METROFOCUS" WITH RAFAEL PI ROMAN, JACQUES FORD AND JENNA FLANAGAN.

"METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY SUE AND EDGAR WALKENHEIM III, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBURG AND BY -- >> GOOD EVENING AND WELCOME TO "METROFOCUS."

I'M JENNA FLANAGAN.

THE DEADLY BEATING OF TYRE NICHOLS IS REIGNITING THE NATIONAL DEBATE OVER WHAT TO DO ABOUT POLICING IN AMERICA.

IT'S ALSO LEFT COMMUNITIES ASKING IF SOME OFFICERS ARE BEING TRAINED TO KILL RATHER THAN PROTECT.

AN ESTIMATED 1,200 PEOPLE DIED AT THE HANDS OF LAW ENFORCEMENT IN 2022, THE DEADLIEST YEAR IN THE PAST DECADE.

WHILE NEW YORK HAS ONE OF THE LOWEST RATES OF POLICE KILLINGS IN THE COUNTRY, THE NON-PROFIT RESEARCH GROUP MAPPING POLICE VIOLENCE FOUND BLACK PEOPLE WERE THREE TIMES MORE LIKELY TO BE KILLED BY POLICE IN AMERICA THAN WHITE PEOPLE.

AS FOR TYRE NICHOLS, WHAT ROLE IF ANY DID THE FACT THAT HE WAS BLACK PLAY IN HIS DEATH?

WAS THE GROUP OF BLACK MEMPHIS OFFICERS CHARGED WITH HIS MURDER INFLUENCED BY RACE?

WILL ONGOING EFFORTS TO OVERHAUL OFFICER TRAINING AND DIVERSIFY DEPARTMENTS PREVENT FUTURE TRAGEDIES LIKE THIS?

TO DISCUSS THIS, WE ARE JOINED BY TWO LAW ENFORCEMENT EXPERTS ON THE FRONT LINES OF THESE VERY ISSUES.

FIRST I WOULD LIKE TO WELCOME KIRK BURKHALTER.

KIRK IS DIRECTOR OF THE 21st CENTURY POLICING PROJECT AND A FACULTY MEMBER AT NEW YORK LAW.

THE 21st CENTURY POLICING PROJECT WORKS TO IMPROVE THE RELATIONS BETWEEN POLICE AND THE COMMUNITIES THAT THEY SERVE.

KIRK, WELCOME TO "METROFOCUS."

>> MY PLEASURE TO BE HERE.

THANK YOU.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT IN ADDITION TO BEING A PROFESSOR AT NEW YORK LAW, YOU ARE ALSO A RETIRED NYPD DETECTIVE.

I DON'T WANT TO LEAVE THAT OUT.

>> THAT'S CORRECT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

I RETIRED A FIRST GRADE DETECTIVE WITH THE NEW YORK CITY POLICE DEPARTMENT.

>> SECONDLY, I WOULD LIKE TO WELCOME GRAHAM WEATHERSPOON.

GRAHAM IS A RETIRED NYPD DETECTIVE WHO ADVOCATED FOR NEW YORKERS WRONGFULLY KILLED BY POLICE AND CURRENTLY A BOARD MEMBER AT A FOUNDATION THAT PROMOTES RACIAL EQUITY THROUGH EDUCATION SCHOLARSHIPS.

WELCOME BACK TO "METROFOCUS."

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

HAPPY NEW YEAR.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

FIRST, LET'S BEGIN, AS I MENTIONED AT THE TOP, WITH THE HORRIFIC BEATING AND KILLING OF TYRE NICHOLS.

FIRST OFF, TO BOTH OF YOU, WHEN YOU SAW WHAT UNFOLDED IN MEMPHIS, WAS THIS SOMETHING THAT WAS SHOCKING TO YOU, OR WAS THIS SOMETHING WHERE PERHAPS YOU WEREN'T SHOCKED -- I DON'T WANT TO SAY IN A SENSE YOU UNDERSTOOD, BUT THAT THIS WASN'T AS SURPRISING, PERHAPS, AS IT WAS TO THE REST OF THE POPULATION.

GRAHAM, WE WILL START WITH YOU.

>> I FOUND IT VERY TROUBLING AND SHOCKING.

PEOPLE HAVE SAID, WELL, THESE ARE BLACK POLICE OFFICERS, AND IT SORT OF MAKES IT DIFFERENT.

I HAVE ARRESTED BLACK POLICE OFFICER -- AT LEAST ONE BLACK POLICE OFFICER WHO CROSSED THE LINE IN VICTIMIZING A YOUNG GIRL.

THIS ISSUE OF MEN IN BLUE AS THOUGH WHEN YOU BECOME A POLICE OFFICER YOU ARE NO LONGER BLACK, THE PROBLEM IN THIS COUNTRY IS THE ISSUE OF RACE AND RACISM AT THE FOUNDATION OF THIS COUNTRY.

WE HAVE NEVER ADDRESSED IT.

IT IS THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.

I THINK MOST PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY LIVE IN ONE OF TWO STATES.

THE MOST TWO OCCUPIED STATES ARE THE STATE OF DENIAL AND THE STATE OF FEAR.

AMERICA IS IN DENIAL ABOUT THE PROBLEM OF RACE IN THIS COUNTRY.

IT AFFECTS NOT JUST PEOPLE OF COLOR.

IT AFFES CAUCASIANS AS WELL.

THE WILLIE LYNCH SYNDROME.

THEY CAME TO AMERICA TO TEACH SLAVE OWNERS HOW TO WORK THE MINDS OF THE SLAVE.

IF YOU DO IT PROPERLY, THE WOMEN WILL CARRY OUT THE PROGRAM FOR YOU.

THEY WILL TEACH THEIR SONS TO BE LESS THAN MEN.

THEY WILL TEACH THEIR DAUGHTERS TO BE STRICTLY INDEPENDENT OF A MAN.

THAT WAS OVER 300 YEARS AGO.

IT IS TRUE.

IT IS NOT ONLY THE FACT THAT ONE IS BLACK AND ONE IS WHITE.

BUT THAT ONE BLACK OVERSEER WILL LOOK AT ONE JUST LIKE HIMSELF IN A LESS THAN HUMAN MANNER AND TREAT HIM IN SUCH A WAY.

THE PEOPLE'S INSTITUTE FOR SURVIVAL AND BEYOND ADDRESSES THE ISSUE OF RACE.

I WOULD RECOMMEND ANY PEOPLE THAT ARE SERIOUS ABOUT DEALING WITH RACISM TAKE THAT COURSE.

IT'S INTENSE.

IT IS TAKEN WITH PEOPLE OF VARIOUS BACKGROUNDS AND ETHNICITIES.

IT CAUSES YOU TO LOOK AT YOURSELF AND HOW YOU LOOK AT OTHER PEOPLE OF DIFFERENT NATIONALITIES AND RACES.

>> KIRK, THE SAME QUESTION TO YOU.

WERE YOU -- AGAIN, IT FEELS SO ODD TO SAY, WERE YOU SHOCKED, BUT WAS THIS SOMETHING THAT WAS PERHAPS AS SHOCKING TO YOU AS IT WAS TO SO MANY IN THE REST OF THE COUNTRY?

>> THAT'S A VERY INTERESTING QUESTION.

CERTAINLY, I WOULD SAY I WAS SHOCKED, BECAUSE I'M ALWAYS SHOCKED WHEN HUMAN BEINGS CAN TREAT OTHER HUMAN BEINGS WITH SUCH CALLOUSNESS AND HATRED.

SO THAT WAS SHOCKING.

I DON'T NECESSARILY BELIEVE I WAS AS SHOCKED AS THE GENERAL PUBLIC.

THE REASON BEING IS THAT WE HAVE NOT ADDRESSED POLICING IN A WHOLESALE FASHION AS FAR AS WHAT CORRECTIVE MEASURES NEED TO BE TAKEN.

IF I COULD EXPAND ON THAT JUST FOR A SECOND.

WE HAVE KIND OF PUT BAND-AID ON THINGS.

WE LOOK -- LOOK AT THE DEATH OF GEORGE FLOYD AS A WATERSHED MOMENT.

NOT THAT IT SHOULD BE.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN GOING ON FOR YEARS.

IF WE TAKE THAT AS A WATERSHED MOMENT IN MAY OF 2020, WE PUT A LOT OF BAND-AIDS ON PROGRAMS.

WE ADDRESSED TRAINING AND DIVERSIFY DEPARTMENTS.

ALL THOSE THINGS ARE GOOD.

WE HAVEN'T EXAMINED THE NATURE OF POLICING.

IS THE INSTITUTION OF POLICING AS IT CURRENTLY EXISTS SOMETHING THAT SHOULD GO FORWARD IN THIS MANNER?

THIS INSTITUTION EXISTED IN THIS SHAPE AND FORM FOR A COUPLE OF HUNDRED YEARS.

THERE COMES A POINT WHERE YOU HAVE TO STOP PUTTING BAND-AIDS ON SOMETHING AND PERHAPS REIMAGINE IT.

IT DOESN'T MEAN ALL POLICE OFFICERS ARE BAD.

DOESN'T MEAN THAT WE DON'T NECESSARILY NEED SOME MECHANISM TO ENFORCE OUR LAWS.

HOWEVER, WHEN WE LOOK AT THE WHOLESALE INSTITUTION, HOW WE TRAIN POLICE, HOW WE EDUCATE POLICE, HOW MUCH TIME WE SPEND DOING SO, WHO WE SELECT FOR THESE POSITIONS, HOW WE TRAIN AND SELECT OUR EXECUTIVE OFFICERS, WHAT THE WORD POLICING MEANS IN THE 21st CENTURY, WE PARTICULAR THINGS.

IN THAT RESPECT, I DO BELIEVE THAT UNTIL WE TAKE A LOOK AT POLICING IN ITS TOTALITY AND HOW WE DELIVER SERVICES TO COMMUNITIES AND WHETHER ALL THOSE SERVICES SHOULD BE DELIVERED BY THE POLICE OR SOMEONE ELSE, WHAT DOES A PRECINCT LOOK LIKE, WHAT SHOULD IT LOOK LIKE, UNTIL WE ADDRESS THESE VARIOUS MECHANISMS, I DON'T THINK WE WILL -- THIS IS THE LAST TIME WE WILL SEE SUCH AN EVENT.

>> UNFORTUNATELY.

YOU BROUGHT UP REALLY THE CORE ISSUE HERE THAT I WANTED TO DISCUSS TONIGHT.

THAT IS THE TRAINING OF POLICE.

IS THERE SOMETHING THAT BOTH OF YOU ARE AWARE OF THAT THE GENERAL PUBLIC ISN'T?

WE HEARD A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THEIR RESPONSE TO THIS LATER HORRIFIC INCIDENT SAYING, YOU CAN'T REFORM THIS.

KIRK, BUILDING OFF OF WHAT YOU WERE SAYING, WHAT IS IT AT LEAST THAT THE REST OF US DON'T PERHAPS UNDERSTAND OR KNOW ABOUT WHAT GOES ON IN POLICE TRAINING FACILITIES AND WHY THERE SEEMS TO BE AN IMMEDIATE REACTION TO GO TO SUBDUING AND SOMETIMES VIOLENCE BEFORE MEDIATION?

>> SO, I THINK THIS GOES TO EDUCATION.

LET ME JUST SAY THAT I'M CERTAINLY FROM THE CAMP THAT YOU CAN'T TRAIN THIS AWAY.

HOW DO YOU TRAIN SOMEONE -- YOU HAVE TO TELL SOMEONE TO TREAT SOMEONE ELSE -- ANOTHER HUMAN BEING HUMANELY, TO NOT BEAT THEM TO DEATH?

THAT GOES MORE TO THE SELECTION PROCESS AND THE MONITORING PROCESS.

FURTHER, RIGHT NOW, THE MAJORITY OF POLICE ACADEMIES AROUND THE COUNTRY, THEY LAST FOR SIX MONTHS OR SO.

WE KNOW, IT'S WELL DOCUMENTED, THAT IT TAKES LONGER TO BECOME A BARBER, FOR INSTANCE, IN NEW YORK STATE.

WE CAN RATTLE OFF THE VARIOUS PROFESSIONS WHERE ONE SPENDS TWICE OR THREE TIMES THE AMOUNT OF TIME TO TRAIN AND LEARN HOW TO DO SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T HAVE THE LIFE AND DEATH RAMIFICATIONS.

WHEN WE TALK ABOUT TRAINING, I DO BELIEVE IT'S MORE AKIN -- THE PROPER TERM WOULD BE EDUCATION.

POLICE OFFICERS, I BELIEVE, SHOULD BE TRAINED OR EDUCATED MORE AKIN TO AN UNDERGRADUATE DEGREE.

TWO YEARS, THREE YEARS.

DURING THAT PERIOD, THEY HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO GO OUT AND PERFORM PATROL FUNCTIONS, COME BACK INTO THE TRAINING FACILITY, THE EDUCATION FACILITY AND REFLECT ON THAT, FOR TWO REASONS.

ONE, GIVES ONE A BETTER SENSE OF THEMSELVES AND WHERE THEY FIT INTO SOCIETY.

IF YOU LEARN ABOUT -- THINK ABOUT AN UNDERGRADUATE EDUCATION, WHY ARE YOU FORCED TO TAKE SUCH A VARIETY OF COURSES?

IT MAKES YOU UNDERSTAND YOUR PLACE IN SOCIETY.

WITH THE POLICE, IT'S VERY IMPORTANT.

THEY SERVE A VERY IMPORTANT FUNCTION IN SOCIETY.

FURTHER, MOST POLICE ACADEMIES, THE TRAINING IS DONE BY POLICE DEPARTMENT OFFICIALS, OTHER POLICE OFFICERS OF VARIOUS RANKS.

WE HAVE SOME OF THE MOST OUTSTANDING ACADEMIC INSTITUTIONS, FOR INSTANCE HERE IN NEW YORK CITY, AND THERE'S NO REASON WHY WE CANNOT HAVE FACULTY FROM UNDERGRADUATE AND GRADUATE INSTITUTIONS WORKING TO HELP EDUCATE POLICE OFFICERS.

HUGE BENEFIT WOULD BE THIS WOULD FORCE THEIR INTERACTION EARLY ON WITH THE CIVILIAN POPULATION.

IT'S NOT KIND OF US AGAINST THEM.

THE NATURE OF THE QUESTION JUST ASKED ALWAYS BOTHERS ME A LITTLE BIT.

WHAT DOES THE PUBLIC NOT KNOW?

I THINK WE NEED TRANSPARENCY.

THE PUBLIC SHOULD KNOW.

WE SHOULD HAVE CIVILIAN ACADEMIES SO THE PUBLIC SHOULD KNOW AND UNDERSTAND EXACTLY HOW OUR POLICE OFFICERS ARE BEING TRAINED AND EDUCATED.

>> GRAHAM, SAME QUESTION.

HOW DO YOU EVEN BEGIN TO DEAL WITH THIS?

IS THIS AT THE ROOT OF POLICE TRAINING OR IS THERE SOMETHING DIFFERENT GOING ON?

>> I BELIEVE WITH WHAT KIRK SAID EARLIER, YOU CANNOT TRAIN A PERSON TO TREAT ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL IN A HUMANE MANNER.

THEY WILL COMING IN AT AGE 21.

THE OLD PHRASE, AS THE TWIG IS BENT, SO SHALL IT GROW.

THE BASIC THINGS FROM OUR MOTHERS AND FATHERS IS WHAT HAS ESTABLISHED US AS ADULTS TODAY.

IT'S HARD TO TAKE A PERSON THAT'S 21, 22 AND 23 WHO HAS TOTAL DISREGARD FOR OTHER PEOPLE AND GET THEM TO NOW APPROACH AN INDIVIDUAL IN A HUMANE MANNER.

IT'S VERY DIFFICULT.

AGAIN, I HATE TO SAY IT, BUT IT'S COMING BACK TO RACIAL ISSUES.

IT'S COMING BACK TO THE AREAS IN WHICH PEOPLE ARE RAISED.

IN NEW YORK CITY, YEARS AGO, HAD YOU TO LIVE IN NEW YORK CITY TO BE A POLICE OFFICER.

THAT WAS REQUIRED.

IF YOU FELT THE CITY WAS NOT A PLACE THAT YOU WANTED TO LIVE, THEN YOU COULD BE A POLICE OFFICER WHEREVER YOU WERE LIVING.

PBA PUSHED FOR CHANGES IN THAT WAY.

THE VERY DAY THAT THE LAW WAS PASSED, THE PBA PRESIDENT VACATED NEW YORK CITY.

I HAVE WHITE FRIENDS WHO ARE ON THE JOB THAT TOLD ME THAT THEY DID NOT WANT TO REMAIN ON THE JOB BECAUSE OF THE ATTITUDES OF THE POLICE OFFICERS THAT THEY WERE WORKING WITH IN SOME OF THE PRECINCTS.

IT WAS VERY TROUBLING FOR THEM AS WHITE MALES TO HEAR THE ATTITUDES COMING OUT OF THE MOUTHS OF THEIR FELLOW OFFICERS.

SO EVEN WITH AN ASSOCIATE'S DEGREE OR COLLEGE DEGREE, THAT DOES NOT CHANGE THE ATTITUDE OR THE SPIRIT OF THE INDIVIDUAL.

THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE OBTAINED THEIR EDUCATIONAL DEGREES.

BUT THAT IS SEPARATE AND APART FROM WHO THEY ARE AS AN INDIVIDUAL.

WE DRAW POLICE OFFICERS FROM SOCIETY.

THAT'S WHERE WE GET THEM FROM.

WE DON'T PULL THEM FROM ANOTHER PLANET.

AS THIS SOCIETY AND CULTURE IS FUNCTIONING, THIS IS WHERE THE POOL OF PEOPLE COME FROM.

IF YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT YOU SEE IN SOCIETY, IT MAKES IT MORE DIFFICULT TO FIND PEOPLE TO DO THIS JOB.

THIS IS NOT FLIPPING BURGERS OR SELLING SHOES.

THE AUTHORITY THAT IS GIVEN TO A POLICE OFFICER, THE RIGHT -- I'M CAREFUL WITH THE TERM.

THE RIGHT TO TAKE A LIFE, IN MY OPINION, MAY BE DIFFERENT TO THAT OF MANY OTHERS.

I HAVE BEEN IN ARMED CONFRONTATIONS.

I HAVE HAD PEOPLE TRY AND KILL ME.

I HAVE NEVER DISCHARGED MY WEAPON.

NEVER.

ONE MAY SAY, WELL, TECHNICALLY, UNDER LAW, YOU COULD DO IT AND GET A COMBAT MEDAL.

BUT THE VALUE OF THE HUMAN LIFE IS WHAT HAS BEEN LOST HERE.

WE LOOKED AT GEORGE FLOYD DYING.

WE SAW RODNEY KING ALMOST 30 YEARS AGO.

WE SAW GEORGE FLOYD BEING MURDERED BY A MAN WHO CALMLY LOOKED INTO THE LENS OF THAT PHONE AS THOUGH HE WAS STEPPING ON A ROACH.

NOW THE VIDEOS ARE MORE AND MORE HORRIFIC.

THE DEGRADATION OF HUMAN LIFE IS A SERIOUS ISSUE.

IT IS VERY DISTRESSING TO ME TO KNOW THAT ANY INDIVIDUAL WOULD TREAT ANOTHER HUMAN BEING THIS WAY.

BUT WE HAVE TO FIND PEOPLE WHO ARE WILLING TO COME FORWARD TO TAKE THESE KEY POSITIONS.

THIS IS NOT A JOB.

THIS IS SOMETHING YOU HAVE TO BE CALLED TO DO AND DO IT PROPERLY WITH CONCERN AND CARE FOR PEOPLE.

IF YOU DON'T HAVE THAT -- HOW DO WE SELECT -- WE GIVE A PSYCHOLOGICAL EXAM.

THERE'S A WRITTEN EXAM.

THERE'S AN ORAL INTERVIEW.

THAT'S NOT ENOUGH.

IT DOES NOT SATISFY THE PROCESS OF SELECTING AN OFFICER.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE ANSWER IS.

I REALLY DON'T.

>> KIRK, I'M WONDERING -- BASED ON WHAT I WAS JUST HEARING FROM GRAHAM ABOUT HOW THERE ARE SOME MECHANISMS IN PLACE, PSYCHOLOGICAL EXAM, WRITTEN EXAM, ET CETERA, BUT BOTH OF YOU HAVE SAID THAT YOU CAN'T TRAIN SOMEONE TO TREAT SOMEONE IN A HUMANE WAY.

I'M WONDERING, CAN YOU AND DO SOMETIMES PERHAPS INADVERTENTLY, POLICE ACADEMIES, TRAIN PEOPLE TO TREAT OTHERS IN AN INHUMAN WAY?

DOES THAT MAKE SENSE AS A QUESTION?

>> THE QUESTION MAKES SENSE.

I THINK POLICE ACADEMIES ATTEMPT TO TRAIN PEOPLE TO TREAT OTHERS IN A HUMANE MANNER.

THAT CAN ALWAYS BE INCREASED BASED ON WHAT WE HAVE SEEN.

THAT GOES TO MY POINT OF INCREASED EDUCATION, GROUNDING IN PHILOSOPHY AND ETHICS I THINK WOULD BE EXTREMELY HELPFUL.

A GOOD POINT HERE IS THAT WHILE THERE ARE MECHANISMS IN PLACE FOR THE ONBOARDING PROCESS, AND YOU MENTIONED THERE'S A CURRICULUM, IN MOST POLICE DEPARTMENTS, THERE'S LITTLE TO NO MONITORING.

FOR INSTANCE, I WENT THROUGH A 20-YEAR CAREER AND I NEVER WENT THROUGH ANY FORM OF PSYCHOLOGICAL TESTING OR MONITORING OF THAT NATURE AFTER I LEFT THE POLICE ACADEMY.

THANK GOD, EVERYTHING WORKED OUT.

COULD YOU IMAGINE IN A JOB LIKE THIS, THERE'S SO MUCH STRESS, YOU SEE SO MANY DIFFERENT THINGS AND THERE'S A POSSIBILITY THAT YOU MIGHT INTERACT WITH SOMEONE IN A COMBAT SITUATION OR FIND A SITUATION WHERE YOU WILL HAVE TO USE FORCE.

I THINK HOW IS IT POSSIBLE YOU CANNOT HAVE SOME FORM OF MONITORING?

RE-TRAINING.

REFRESHER COURSES.

ALL PROFESSIONS HAVE SOME FORM OF RE-TRAINING.

LAWYERS, AT LEAST HERE IN NEW YORK STATE, ARE REQUIRED TO TAKE CONTINUING LEGAL EDUCATION COURSES EVERY YEAR.

IF THEY DON'T, THEIR LICENSE WILL BE SUSPENDED.

WHY DON'T WE MAKE FOR -- HAVE ALLOWANCES FOR POLICE OFFICERS TO HAVE SOME FORM OF CONTINUED TRAINING AND MONITORING?

PERHAPS THE LARGE POLICE DEPARTMENT SUCH AS NEW YORK CITY, IT MIGHT BE IMPORTANT TO PULL POLICE OFFICERS FROM THEIR DUTIES FOR A COUPLE OF WEEKS AND SEND THEM TO A RETREAT OF SOME TYPE WHERE THEY ARE RE-EDUCATED AND MONITORED AND RETURNED TO THEIR DUTIES.

>> IF I MAY.

>> PLEASE.

>> I WAS THINKING, KIRK KNOWS WHAT AN A HOUSE IS AND A B HOUSE.

THERE ARE GUYS THAT WILL PREFER TO GO TO AN A HOUSE BECAUSE IT'S A HIGHER CRIME AREA.

>> I WAS GOING TO SAY, EXPLAIN WHAT AN A HOUSE AND B HOUSE IS.

>> A HOUSE IS HIGH CRIME.

B IS SOMEWHAT.

C IS EASY GOING ENVIRONMENT.

I THINK THAT GUYS SHOULD BE PULLED FROM THE A HOUSES.

IF YOU ARE IN AN A HOUSE, MAYBE AFTER FIVE YEARS YOU ARE TRANSFERRED AUTOMATICALLY TO A B OR C HOUSE WHERE THE ACTIVITY IS LESS.

ALSO IN THAT, THE PEOPLE YOU ARE DEALING WITH DON'T LOOK LIKE THE PEOPLE IN THE A HOUSE.

YOU ARE GOING FROM BROWNSVILLE TO FOREST HILLS.

YOUR ATTITUDE AS A POLICE OFFICER IS GOING TO BE VERY DIFFERENT.

I HAD A YOUNG OFFICER CALL ME, HE WAS A ROOKIE, HE CALLED ME.

HE SAID THAT A CAPTAIN AT ROLL CALL SAID TO THEM, IF YOU GET HURT OUT THERE, IT WILL BE A BLACK OR LATINO THAT WILL HURT YOU.

SO DEAL WITH THEM ACCORDINGLY.

I HAVE KILLED ONE AND I SLEEP WELL AT NIGHT.

THAT'S WHAT HE SAID TO A GROUP OF ROOKIES AT A ROLL CALL.

I MADE A PHONE CALL TO THE CHIEF.

HE WAS RELIEVED HIS COMMAND.

THAT KIND OF MENTALITY COMING FROM A SUPERIOR OFFICER TO A ROOKIE JUST COMING OUT OF THE ACADEMY IS NOT ACCEPTABLE, NOT EVEN ACCEPTABLE FOR THEM.

THE GENTLEMAN SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN IN THE DEPARTMENT AT ALL.

>> GRAHAM, I CERTAINLY DON'T WANT TO INTERRUPT YOU.

BUT THIS SPEAKS TO WHAT YOU WERE MENTIONING EARLIER ABOUT HOW YOU KNEW OF WHITE COLLEAGUES WHO KNEW OF OTHER POLICE OFFICERS WHO THEY WEREN'T COMFORTABLE WORKING WITH.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT COMES UP FREQUENTLY FOR THE PUBLIC IN REGARDS TO VIOLENCE, FIREARMS, ET CETERA, ARE RED FLAG LAWS.

IT SEEMS LIKE WITHIN POLICE CULTURE, IT'S DISCOURAGED TO MAKE A COMPLAINT OR RAT OUT A FELLOW OFFICER.

TO BOTH OF YOU, I'M WONDERING, WHY DON'T WE SEE MORE OF THAT?

IT SEEMS AS IF ONCE, UNFORTUNATELY, A TRAGEDY HAPPENS AND THE PRESS STARTS PULLING LAYERS BACK, THIS WAS SOMEONE WHO PROBABLY OTHER PEOPLE ON THE FORCE KNEW WAS A PROBLEM BUT FOR WHATEVER REASON DIDN'T FEEL AS THOUGH THEY COULD MAKE A COMPLAINT.

KIRK, I WILL START WITH YOU.

>> CERTAINLY, THERE IS A NOTION THAT IF YOU ARE WORKING WITH FELLOW POLICE OFFICERS, THAT'S THE PERSON THAT'S GOING TO HAVE YOUR BACK, SO TO SPEAK, IF YOU ARE IN SOME TYPEOR PHYSICAL COMBAT.

THIS IS WHAT BREEDS THAT FEELING THAT POLICE OFFICERS SHOULD SUPPORT EACH OTHER.

AS YOU RIGHTLY POINT OUT, THIS EXTENDS FURTHER THAN IT SHOULD, HOWEVER, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT WRONGDOING.

THE HORSE HAS LEFT THE BARN ALREADY WITH REGARD TO THE CULTURE.

THIS REQUIRES A TREMENDOUS CULTURE SHIFT.

I DON'T THINK THIS IS ISOLATED TO POLICING.

WE SEE THIS IN THE MILITARY AND ANY ORGANIZATION, PEOPLE TEND TO BE OSTRACIZED WHEN THEY TURN IN OTHERS.

THIS REQUIRED A TREMENDOUS CULTURAL SHIFT.

I KNOW THAT FOR INSTANCE IN LOUISIANA, SOME OF THE POLICE DEPARTMENTS THERE ARE RECEIVING BYSTANDER TRAINING FROM CIVILIANS AND FROM ACADEMICS.

IT SEEMS TO BE WORKING OUT WELL.

ONCE AGAIN, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT HAS TO START IN THE POLICE ACADEMY.

THE EXECUTIVE OFFICERS, COMMANDERS AND ABOVE, HAVE TO BE ACCOUNTABLE AND HAVE TO IMPRESS THAT UPON THEIR TROOPS, SO TO SPEAK.

IT HAS TO BE AN UNDERSTANDING THAT YOU ARE NOT NECESSARILY RATTING SOMEONE OUT.

WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS PROTECTING THE INSTITUTION AND YOURSELF AND PRIMARILY YOU ARE PROTECTING THE PUBLIC, BECAUSE YOU EXIST TO SERVE THE PUBLIC.

AS I MENTIONED, THIS REQUIRES A SHIFT IN CULTURE AND A TRUE UNDERSTANDING OF THE NATURE OF THE JOB AND THE SERVICE THAT YOU ARE PERFORMING.

>> GRAHAM, WE HAVE ABOUT A MINUTE AND A HALF LEFT.

YOUR THOUGHTS ON, AGAIN, IS THAT ONE OF THE SHIFTS THAT NEEDS TO TAKE PLACE WITHIN POLICING?

>> MOST CERTAINLY.

I WAS ALMOST 25 WHEN I WENT IN.

I HAD ALREADY BEEN WORKING FOR THE CITY.

I WAS MARRIED.

I WAS ESTABLISHED.

I KNEW WHO I WAS.

THEY TEND TO BEND YOUR MIND JUST AS THE MILITARY DOES WHEN YOU GO IN TO THINK A CERTAIN WAY.

A PERSON ENTERING LAW ENFORCEMENT NEEDS TO BE SURE AND HAVE A SURE FOOTING AS TO WHO THEY ARE AND WHAT IS ACCEPTABLE AND WHAT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE TO THEM.

I COME FROM A VERY SPIRITUAL BACKGROUND.

I AM NOT GOING TO TOLERATE ABUSE OR MALTREATMENT OF AN INDIVIDUAL.

I AM ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT I SEE AND WHAT I DO.

FAILURE TO DO WHAT I SHOULD DO, I'M GOING TO HAVE TO ANSWER FOR.

IF NOT HERE, I'M GOING TO HAVE TO ANSWER WHEN I STAND BEFORE GOD.

THAT'S THE WAY I OPERATE PERSONALLY.

>> VERY QUICKLY TO BOTH OF YOU, COULD THE ANSWER BE SOMETHING AS SIMPLE AS JUST DIVERSIFYING THE FORCE, OR DOES IT NEED TO BE A CHANGE IN CULTURE?

GRAHAM AND THEN KIRK.

>> DIVERSIFICATION, I HAVE SEEN THAT IN A NEGATIVE LIGHT IN SOME WAYS.

IT COMES BACK TO THE PEOPLE.

WE HAVE HAD PEOPLE COME IN WHO HAVE TREATED BLACK PEOPLE HORRIFICALLY, AND THEY'RE NOT FROM THIS COUNTRY.

BECAUSE THEY HEARD ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE WHEREVER THEY CAME FROM AND THEY HAVE A PRECONCEIVED NOTION.

THE DIVERSIFICATION, WE THINK IT'S A GREAT IDEA.

IT SHOULD BE.

THE POLICE DEPARTMENT SHOULD BE DIVERSIFIED.

I HAVE SEEN SOME MUSLIM SISTERS WITH THEIR HIJAB AND EVERYTHING, AND I LIKE SEEING THAT.

THE THING IS, WHAT IS IN THE HEART OF THE INDIVIDUAL?

WHAT IS THE MINDSET?

WHAT IS THE THINKING OF THE INDIVIDUAL WHEN THEY APPROACH ANOTHER HUMAN BEING?

>> I WANT TO -- I WANT TO GIVE KIRK A CHANCE BEFORE WE HAVE TO GO.

YOUR THOUGHTS ON WHETHER OR NOT THAT'S THE ANSWER, DIVERSIFICATION.

>> I THINK DIVERSITY IS IMPORTANT.

IT'S NOT A MAGIC WAND.

THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT MOVING PIECES TO THIS PUZZLE.

THAT'S ONE IMPORTANT PIECE.

WE HAVE SEEN IT HELPFUL.

AS EVIDENCE FROM TENNESSEE, IT'S NOT THE MAGIC WAND THAT WE ALL MIGHT THINK IT IS.

>> ON THAT NOTE, WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO LEAVE THIS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT AND ONGOING CONVERSATION.

I WANT TO THANK BOTH OF MY GUESTS, KIRK BURKHALTER, DIRECTOR OF THE 21st CENTURY POLICING PROJECT AND GRAHAM WEATHERSPOON, A BOARD MEMBER OF A FOUNDATION.

BOTH MEN ARE RETIRED MEMBERS OF THE NYPD.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US ON "METROFOCUS."

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> THANK YOU.

>> "METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY SUE AND EDGAR WALKENHEIM III, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANSCOONEY FUND, BARBARA HOPE