MetroFocus: March 1, 2023

>>> TONIGHT, IS THE PUSH FOR RACIAL INCLUSION IN THE THEATER A MAJOR MOVEMENT OR A PASSING MOMENT?

MEET THE ACLAYPOOLED DIRECTOR REWRITING THE VICE PRESIDENT TO TRANSFORM THEATERS AND AUDIENCES.

>>> THEN, NFL ANALYST AND FORMER PRO EMMANUEL ACHO TACKLES SYSTEMIC RACISM IN "UNCOMFORTABLE CONVERSATIONS WITH A BLACK MAN" AS "METROFOCUS" STARTS RIGHT NOW.

♪♪ >>> THIS IS "METROFOCUS," WITH RAFAEL PI ROMAN, JACK FORD AND JENNA FLANAGAN.

>>> "METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, DAGASTINO FOUNDATION, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, THE AMBROSE MONELL FOUNDATION.

AND BY -- >>> GOOD EVENING, AND WELCOME TO "METROFOCUS."

I'M JENNA FLANAGAN.

LIKE MANY PERFORMING ARTS, THE THEATER WORLD HAS STRUGGLED WITH A LACK OF DIVERSITY.

THE INDUSTRY HAS PLEDGED TO CHANGE THAT, BUT THE FACT REMAINS THAT THEATERS CONTINUE TO BE A PREDOMINANTLY WHITE SPACE.

JOINING ME IS SOMEONE WHO'S HOPING TO DIVERSIFY THE THEATER WORLD BY SHARING HIS OWN EXPERIENCE AS A SUCCESSFUL DIRECTOR ON STAGE AND TELEVISION.

FOR TWO DECADES, SHELDON EPPS WAS THE ARTISTIC DIRECTOR OF THE RENOWNED PASADENA PLAYHOUSE IN CALIFORNIA.

HE HAS DIRECTED ON AND OFF BROADWAY AND ALL OVER AMERICA AND IN LONDON, AND HAS A NUMBER OF BIG TV CREDITS TO HIS NAME.

HE CURRENTLY SERVES AS SENIOR ARTISTIC ADVISER AT THE HISTORIC FORD'S THEATRE IN WASHINGTON, D.C. HIS NEW MEMOIR IS CALLED "MY OWN DIRECTIONS: A BLACK MAN'S JOURNEY IN THE AMERICAN THEATRE".

AND HE JOINS ME NOW.

WELCOME, SHELDON.

IT IS GREAT TO HAVE YOU ON "METROFOCUS."

>> THANK YOU.

IT'S GOOD TO BE HERE.

THANK YOU FOR INVITING ME.

>> I JUST SHARED WITH OUR AUDIENCE A LITTLE BIT OF YOUR CV, YOUR HISTORY IN THEATER, BUT CAN YOU GIVE THE AUDIENCE JUST A SENSE OF WHAT YOUR EXPERIENCE WAS LIKE COMING INTO THE THEATER WORLD AS A -- NOT JUST A MAN OF COLOR, BUT SPECIFICALLY A BLACK MAN.

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I HAVE TO SAY THAT I'M REALLY FORTUNATE TO HAVE HAD A WONDERFUL CAREER, AS YOU JUST QUOTED.

WORKING ON BROAD WAY, OFF BROADWAY, IN LONDON, JAPAN, ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, AND BEEN WORKING WITH TWO WONDERFUL THEATERS ON THE ARTISTIC STAFF.

BUT THAT HASN'T BEEN WITHOUT GREAT CHALLENGES AND OBSTACLES.

MANY OF THEM RACIAL.

OTHERS, AS WELL.

BUT MANY CHALLENGES BASED ON BEING A BLACK MAN IN THE AMERICAN THEATER.

AND BEING ONE OF THE FIRST AND SOMETIMES ONE OF THE ONLY TO ACHIEVE CERTAIN POSITIONS IN MAJOR THEATERS.

>> WELL, THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS I'M ALWAYS ASKING MY GUESTS TO EXPAND ON, ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY TALK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THEIR EXPERIENCE AS A BLACK MAN.

FOR EXAMPLE, BEING AS I UNDERSTAND IT YOU ARE ARTISTIC DIRECTOR AT THE PASADENA PLAYHOUSE, PASADENA ISN'T NECESSARILY THE MOST DIVERSE COMMUNITY, AT LEAST ESPECIALLY WHEN IT WOULD COME TO ITS THEATER GOING AND THEATER-SUPPORTING COMMUNITY.

WHAT WAS YOUR EXPERIENCE LIKE COMING INTO THAT ORGANIZATION?

>> WELL, I'M GOING TO ANSWER BY DISAGREEING WITH YOU A LITTLE BIT.

>> OKAY.

>> I'M TELLING YOU THAT THE CITY OF PASADENA IS VERY, VERY DIVERSE AND VERY MULTIETHNIC.

AND WHEN I STARTED AT PASADENA PLAYHOUSE AS ARTISTIC DIRECTOR, THE AUDIENCE AT THE THEATER WAS ALMOST IF NOT ENTIRELY WHITE.

SO IT WAS THAT CONTRADICTION THAT REALLY KIND OF GOT ME GOING AND GOT ME INSTIGATED TO MAKE CHANGES AT THE THEATER BECAUSE I FELT THE THEATER AND ITS PROGRAMMING AND, IN FACT, EVERYTHING ABOUT THE ORGANIZATION SHOULD REFLECT THE DIVERSITY OF THE COMMUNITY OF PASADENA, AND CERTAINLY THE CITY OF GREATER LOS ANGELES BECAUSE IT IS A LOS ANGELES THEATER.

AND EVEN BEYOND THAT, SHOULD REFLECT THE DIVERSITY OF OUR COUNTRY WHICH IT WAS NOT AT THE TIME THAT I STARTED.

SO IT WAS A MAJOR CHANGE TO THE ORGANIZATION.

FIRST OF ALL, I WAS A MAJOR CHANGE TO THE ORGANIZATION.

THEN THE PROGRAMMING AND THE DIVERSITY ON STAGE AND OFF, NOT ONLY ON THE STAGE BUT IN THE AUDIENCES WAS A REAL TASK.

A REAL -- A REAL MISSION, SHALL WE SAY.

>> WELL, JUST TO GIVE, AGAIN, A BETTER SENSE, WHAT WERE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT YOU WENT ABOUT AS ARTISTIC DIRECTOR TO CREATE MORE DIVERSITY NOT JUST ON STAGE BUT PERHAPS TO ATTRACT A MORE DIVERSE AUDIENCE?

>> WELL, I THINK THEATERS OFTEN MAKE A MISTAKE OF GOING BY THE MODEL IF WE BUILD IT THEY WILL COME.

YOU DO HAVE TO BUILD IT.

YOU DO HAVE TO INCLUDE PROGRAMMING THAT'S GOING TO -- THAT'S GOING TO ATTRACT AND BE APPEALING TO AUDIENCES OF COLOR, TO YOUNGER AUDIENCES, TO NEW AUDIENCES, THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT.

BUT BEYOND THAT, YOU HAVE TO GO AFTER WAYS OF MARKETING TO THOSE AUDIENCE THAT'S PERHAPS YOU'D NOT USED BEFORE.

WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT AT MANY OF THESE THEATERS BLACK AUDIENCES IN PARTICULAR, BUT AUDIENCES OF COLOR WERE NOT WELCOME INSIDE THE THEATER.

SO THE FIRST THING THAT YOU HAVE TO DO IS TO CREATE A SINCERE SENSE OF WELCOME AND BELONGING TO THIS THEATER HOME.

THAT INVOLVES NOT JUST SITTING IN YOUR THEATER WAITING FOR PEOPLE TO COME, BUT GOING OUT TO THE COMMUNITY, GOING OUT TO ORGANIZATIONS, TO SCHOOLS, THAT FRATERNITIES, TO JACK AND JILLS, ALL OF THOSE ORGANIZATIONS THAT YOU CAN APPEAL TO TO GET THE AUDIENCE THAT YOU WANT.

>> AND WHAT WAS THE REACTION OF THE LET'S SAY ESTABLISHED AUDIENCE AND THE ESTABLISHMENT WITHIN THE PASADENA PLAYHOUSE?

WAS THIS A CHANGE THAT PEOPLE WERE WELCOME TO, OR SOMETIMES AS WE HAVE SEEN WHEN CHANGE COMES PARTICULARLY CHANGE THAT INVOLVES A RACIAL DEMOGRAPHIC, PERHAPS CLASS DEMOGRAPHICS, PEOPLE CAN SOMETIMES GET A LITTLE UNCOMFORTABLE.

>> YEAH.

NO, YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

I WOULD SAY THAT IT WAS A THIRD, A THIRD, AND A THIRD.

ABOUT A THIRD OF THE AUDIENCE AND THE CONSTITUENCY OF THE THEATER REALLY EMBRACED THAT MISSION RIGHT AWAY.

THEY WERE DOWN WITH IT SO TO SPEAK, AND READY -- READY FOR THAT CHANGE, EAGER FOR THAT CHANGE.

A THIRD WAS KIND OF SKEPTICAL LIKE WHAT'S THIS BLACK GUY GOING TO DO, HOW'S OUR THEATER GOING TO CHANGE, IS IT GOING TO BECOME AN ALL-BLACK THEATER COMPANY, THOSE KIND OF QUESTIONS.

EVENTUALLY MOST OF THOSE PEOPLE WERE WON OVER.

THEN QUITE HONESTLY THERE WAS A THIRD THAT RESISTED IT OR FLED RIGHT AWAY BECAUSE I CERTAINLY MADE IT CLEAR THAT I WAS NOT GOING TO CHANGE THIS MISSION.

SO IF BEING AROUND PEOPLE OF COLOR, BEING AROUND PEOPLE WHO WERE DIFFERENT THAN YOU WAS A PROBLEM, THEN YOU WERE GOING TO -- YOU WERE GOING TO HAVE TO FIND ANOTHER THEATER HOME BECAUSE THIS MISSION WAS GOING TO BE INTACT FOR AS LONG AS I WAS THERE.

>> AND SEVERAL TIMES IN YOUR BOOK YOU MENTIONED THE EXPERIENCE OF BEING THE FIRST OR THE ONLY.

FIRST OF ALL CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT THAT IS LIKE WHEN YOU WALK INTO THE ROOM AND YOU ARE THE ONLY PERSON WHO CARRIES YOUR HISTORY, YOUR UNIQUE EXPERIENCE, AND ALSO YOUR RACIAL IDENTITY?

>> WELL, IT'S A SORT OF DUALITY ABOUT THAT EXPERIENCE.

THERE'S CERTAINLY SOMETHING TO CELEBRATE IN THAT.

IT'S A KIND OF A TRIUMPH, I SUPPOSE, TO HAVE SOMEONE BE THE FIRST.

MR. OBAMA CAN TELL US THAT.

BUT YOU KNOW, AS MUCH AS IT IS REASON FOR CELEBRATION, IT IS A TREMENDOUS BURDEN.

YOU KNOW, YOU ARE BEING LOOKED AT IN A WAY THAT IS DIFFERENT THAN PREVIOUS LEADERS.

THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE SUSPICIOUS OF HOW YOU GOT THERE, IF YOU DESERVE TO BE THERE.

AND THERE ARE PEOPLE, FRANKLY, WHO ARE WAITING FOR YOU TO FAIL SO THAT YOU CAN GET OUT OF THERE, YOU KNOW, SO THAT THIS UNFORTUNATE ACCIDENT, HOWEVER IT HAPPENED, CAN BE CORRECTED.

I ALSO SAY YOU HAVE TO DO THE JOB, AND THEN AS A PERSON OF COLOR YOU HAVE TO PROVE THAT YOU CAN DO THE JOB.

WHICH IS CERTAINLY AN EXTRA BURDEN TO CARRY.

AND THE OTHER BURDEN THAT YOU CARRY IS THAT YOU'RE NOT JUST REPRESENTING YOURSELF, YOU ARE REPRESENTING YOUR RACE.

YOU KNOW, YOU'RE BEING LOOKED AT AS ONE OF THE FIRST TO SEE WHETHER PEOPLE CAN SAY, WELL, WE TRIED, BUT -- WE KNEW THEY WEREN'T UP TO IT.

SO YOU'RE PROVING THAT YOU CAN DO IT BOTH FOR YOURSELF BUT REALLY FOR PEOPLE OF COLOR WHO WILL FOLLOW YOU.

AND THAT'S -- THIS A LOT TO BEAR, I WILL SAY.

>> IS THAT SOMETHING THAT YOU SEE HAS CHANGED IN THE INDUSTRY?

LIKE IS THAT SOMETHING THAT WAS LIKE OKAY, THAT WAS THEN, BUT NOW IT'S NOT LIKE THAT, OR IS THAT STILL SOMETHING WHERE THERE'S STILL PEOPLE WHO IF THEY'RE NOT THE FIRST, THEY'RE THE ONLY PERSON IN THE ROOM?

>> YEAH.

NUMERICALLY IT HAS CHANGED, AND THAT'S CERTAINLY HELPFUL.

YOU KNOW, THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE ANOTHER TIME WHEN THERE IS ONLY ONE BLACK ARTISTIC DIRECTOR OF A MAJOR ORGANIZATION.

THERE ARE MANY, MANY MEN AND WOMEN OF COLOR LEADING MAJOR ORGANIZATIONS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, ALL OVER THE WORLD, AND THAT'S A WONDERFUL THING.

THE SUSPICION IS STILL THERE.

I TALK TO MANY OF THE YOUNGER LEADERS OF COLOR NOW, AND THEY HAVE THE SAME -- THE SAME FEELING ABOUT HAVING TO PROVE THEMSELVES, HAVING TO OVERCOME SUSPICIONS AND THE SAME ADVERSITY THAT I FACED.

IT'S A LITTLE EASIER, BUT IT'S NOT THE SMOOTH ROAD THAT ONE WOULD HOPE IT WOULD BE BY THIS POINT.

>> YOU KNOW, SOME OF OUR VIEWERS MIGHT BE SURPRISED TO HEAR SOME OF THE THINGS THAT YOU'RE SHARING WITH US SIMPLY BECAUSE THE THEATER WORLD HAS BEEN A PLACE THAT'S ALWAYS PRIDED ITSELF ON ITS DIVERSITY AND ITS ACCEPTANCE OF ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE.

AND I'M WONDERING IS THERE A DISCONNECT BETWEEN WHAT PEOPLE THINK ABOUT THE INDUSTRY AND HOW IT ACTUALLY WORKS?

>> I THINK SO.

I REFER TO THE DARK LITTLE SECRET OF THE AMERICAN THEATER IN MY BOOK.

SUPPOSEDLY THE THEATER IS A LIBERAL INSTITUTION, OPEN HEARTED, OPEN MINDED, BUT IF THAT WAS TRUE, I WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ONE OF THE FIRST AND ONE OF THE ONLY.

SO YEAH, THERE IS A DICHOTOMY BETWEEN THE PERCEPTION OF THE ARTS AS A COMPLETELY OPEN FIELD AND THE FACT THAT VERY REAL RACIAL TENSIONS EXISTS ON EVERY LEVEL THEN AND NOW.

THEY'VE CHANGED, IT'S GOTTEN BETTER, AND WE HAVE TO CELEBRATE THE FACT THAT IT'S GOTTEN BETTER.

BUT THOSE RACIAL TENSIONS CERTAINLY STILL DO EXIST AND NEED MORE ENERGY AND MORE EFFORT TO GET BEYOND THEM.

>> AND WHEN YOU SAY IT'S GOTTEN BETTER, IS THAT JUST IN THE NUMBER OF THE TYPES OF PRODUCTIONS THAT HAVE BEEN PUT ON, PERHAPS THE PEOPLE THAT ARE HIRED IN LEADERSHIP POSITIONS LIKE YOURSELF BY DIFFERENT THEATERS, WHEN YOU SAY THERE'S BEEN PROGRESS, WHAT EXACTLY DOES THAT MEAN?

>> ALL OF THE THINGS THAT YOU MENTIONED.

CERTAINLY WE'RE SEEING MUCH MORE PARTICIPATION BY ARTISTS OF COLOR IN PRODUCTIONS AS DIRECTORS, AS WRITERS.

WE ARE SEEING THE BEGINNING OF THE CHANGE IN THE AUDIENCES.

HOWEVER, I WILL SAY THAT I CAN STILL GO TO THEATERS EVEN IN NEW YORK CITY AND BE THE ONLY BLACK PERSON IN THE AUDIENCE FOR CERTAIN PRODUCTIONS.

SO WHERE THERE'S ROOM FOR CHANGE THERE.

AND THERE'S CERTAINLY ROOM FOR CHANGE IN THE LEADERSHIP POSITIONS.

THOUGH THERE ARE MANY MORE LEADERS OF COLOR NOW THAN THERE WERE 20 YEARS AGO.

IT'S STILL BY PERCENTAGE A VERY LOW NUMBER, AND CERTAINLY WHEN YOU GO INTO THE AREA OF FILM AND TELEVISION AND PEOPLE RUNNING NETWORKS AND RUNNING STUDIOS AND HAVING THE ABILITY TO GREEN LIGHT A PROJECT, THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE -- THE NUMBER OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE PEOPLE OF COLOR IS STILL WOEFUL.

WE NEED MORE -- MORE PEOPLE IN POSITIONS OF POWER TO BE ABLE TO SAY YES, LET'S DO THIS PROJECT SO THAT MORE PEOPLE OF COLOR CAN BE EMPLOYED IN THOSE PROJECTS.

>> WELL, WE'VE ONLY GOT ABOUT 30 SECONDS LEFT, BUT WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE -- AGAIN, SPECIFICALLY A PERSON OF COLOR, WHO WANTS TO BUILD A CAREER IN THEATER?

>> I WOULD TAKE A SHIFT OF THE TITLE OF MY BOOK WHICH IS "MY OWN DIRECTIONS," I DON'T THINK ANYBODY SHOULD FOLLOW MY DIRECTIONS, BUT YOU SHOULD FOLLOW YOUR OWN DIRECTIONS.

FIND AND FOLLOW YOUR OWN DIRECTIONS.

DON'T LET ANYBODY DEFINE YOUR PATH.

DON'T LET ANYBODY RESTRICT YOUR PATH.

AS WE CELEBRATE DR. KING, HAVE YOUR DREAM, HAVE A BIG DREAM, BE AMBITIOUS, BE BOLD, BE PASSIONATE, AND GO AFTER IT WITH EVERY PART OF YOUR BEING.

AND YOU'LL MAKE YOUR DREAM COME TRUE.

>> ALL RIGHT.

ONE, SHELDON EPPS, I WANT TO THANK YOU SO MUCH NOT ONLY FOR SHARING YEAR IPICK CAREER JOURNEY WITH US, BUT ALSO FOR SHARING YOUR BOOK, "MY OWN DIRECTIONS: A BLACK MAN'S JOURNEY IN THE AMERICAN THEATRE."

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ON "METROFOCUS."

>> THANK YOU.

I'VE ENJOYED TALKING TO YOU.

♪♪ >>> GOOD EVENING AND WELCOME TO "METROFOCUS," I AM JACK FORD.

DURING THIS EXTRAORDINARY PERIOD OF SOCIAL AND POLITICAL TURMOIL, WE'VE COME TO REALIZE THAT ONE OF THE THINGS WE DESPERATELY NEED IS MEANINGFUL CONVERSATION.

A COMMODITY THAT HAS BEEN SCARCE UP UNTIL NOW.

WE ARE FORTUNATE THAT ONE MAN HAS STEPPED FORWARD.

EMMANUEL ACHO HAS USED HIS STATUS AS A FORMER FOOTBALL STAR AT THE UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS, IN THE NFL, TO CREATE A PLATFORM FOR CONVERSATIONS THAT ARE MEANINGFUL, THAT ARE REAL, THAT ARE RELEVANT, AND ARE THOUGHTFUL, AND PERHAPS MOST IMPORTANT, THAT ARE DIFFICULT.

AND HE JOINS US NOW TO TALK ABOUT HIS NEW BOOK, HIS BOOK HAS BORROWED, IF I CAN, THE TITLE FROM HIS ENORMOUSLY SUCCESSFUL VIDEO SERIES.

AND THE BOOK IS ENTITLED "UNCOMFORTABLE CONVERSATIONS WITH A BLACK MAN."

AND EMMANUEL JOINS US AS PARTS OF OUR "CHASING THE DREAM" INITIATIVE ON POVERTY, JUSTICE, AND ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY IN AMERICA.

WELCOME.

>> THANK YOU FOR THE KIND INTRODUCTION, MY FRIEND.

>> GREAT.

I HAVE TO SAY -- I WANT TO SAY I READ THE BOOK YESTERDAY, IT WAS FABULOUS.

IT WAS ALL OF THOSE THINGS THAT I MENTIONED.

HATE AS IMPORTANCE IT WAS AS IF AS I WAS READING THE BOOK I WAS ACTUALLY HAVING A CONVERSATION WITH YOU.

DIFFERENT BOOKS ARE WRITTEN IN DIFFERENT FASHIONS.

I SUSPECT THAT'S WHAT YOU WANTED.

I WANT TO GET TO THE BOOK IN A SECOND.

I WANT PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND WHERE THIS BOOK IS COMING FROM, I THINK THEY NEED TO KNOW A LITTLE MORE ABOUT YOU.

AND I WAS STRK -- STRUCK BY THE FACT -- I MENTIONED YOUR FOOTBALL SUCCESS.

I WAS STRUCK BY THE FACT IN YOUR BOOK YOU SAY EARLY ON, YOUR WORDS, "I'VE BEEN NAVIGATING THE LANES BETWEEN WHITENESS AND BLACKNESS ALL OF MY LIFE."

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?

>> SO JACK, IF WE CAN START THIS OFF BY BEING UNCOMFORTABLE, I REALIZE THAT THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN COLOR AND CULTURE.

SO JACK, I WENT TO AN AFFLUENT WHITE PRIVATE SCHOOL FROM GRADES FIVE THROUGH GRADE 12.

YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE A NATIONAL MERIT SCHOLAR, GO TO HARVARD, GO TO YALE, I HAPPENED TO BE 6'2", 240 POUNDS, YOU KNOW, WHAT I'LL PLAY FOOTBALL.

LET ME PUT THIS IN MORE CONTEXT, JACK.

THERE WERE PERFECT S.A.T.

AND A.C.T.

SCORES FROM STUDENTS IN MY GRADUATING HIGH SCHOOL CLASS.

THERE WERE 16-YEAR-OLDS WHO WERE ALREADY COMPOSING MUSIC FOR VIOLINS AND CELLOS.

LIKE I WAS AT A SCHOOL WITH THE CREAM OF THE CROP.

IT'S CALLED ST. MARK'S SCHOOL IN TEXAS, NUMBER-ONE PRIVATE SCHOOL IN DALLAS.

SO I WAS IMMERSED IN WHITE CULTURE, JACK.

THEN I GO TO THE UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS, PLAYING FOOTBALL IN AUSTIN, THEN GO TO THE NFL.

I WAS IMMERSED IN BLACK CULTURE, BUT I'M FIRST GENERATION AMERICAN.

MY PARENTS WERE BORN IN NIGERIA.

WHILE MY SKIN IS BLACK, I GREW UP NIGERIAN CULTURE.

SO I HAD TO LEARN WHITE CULTURE.

AND THEN I HAD TO LEARN BLACK CULTURE.

SO I HAD TO NAVIGATE WHITE SPACES, AND I HAD TO NAVIGATE BLACK SPACES, THAT'S WHY I CAN HAVE THESE CONVERSATIONS BECAUSE ALL -- WHILE WE ALL SPEAK ENGLISH, JACK, THERE IS A CLEAR, LARGE COMMUNICATION BARRIER BETWEEN WHITE PEOPLE AND HOW THEY COMMUNICATE TO BLACK PEOPLE AND HOW THEY COMMUNICATE.

>> I SAID -- I PLAYED FOOTBALL AT YALE.

I WOULD HAVE LOVED TO HAVE YOU COME TO NEW HAVEN AND PLAY FOR THE YALE BULLDOGS.

OUR LOSS AND THE LONGHORNS' GAIN.

LET ME GO TO THE TITLE OF THE BOOK, ALL RIGHT, BECAUSE I THINK TITLES ARE SO INTERESTING AND IMPORTANT, AND THEY ARE SO DIFFICULT TO COME UP OFTENTIMES WITH THE RIGHT TITLE.

I KNOW YOU HAD A WORKING TITLE THAT WAS DIFFERENT FROM THIS.

WHY IS THE NOTION OF UNCOMFORTABLE CONVERSATIONS SO IMPORTANT?

>> BECAUSE I THINK THAT ANYTHING WORTH DOING IT IS THROUGH DISCOMFORT.

ANYTHING GREAT, JACK, IS BIRTHED THROUGH THIS, AS WELL.

AND PLAYING FOOTBALL -- IN ORDER TO START THE SEASON, YOU HAVE TO GO THROUGH TRAINING CAMP.

AND TRAINING CAMP, FOR THOSE THAT WATCH AND DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT IS, TRAINING CAMP IS GRUELING PRACTICES IN THE TEXAS HEAT FOR ME WITH ABOUT 12 POUNDS OF PADDING ON.

YOU HAVE TO GO THROUGH THAT DISCOMFORT TO ACHIEVE YOUR GOALS.

WOMEN GO THROUGH NO SMALL AMOUNT OF DISCOMFORT AND PAIN TO BIRTH THE NEXT GREAT CHILD THAT WILL ACCOMPLISH THE NEXT GREAT THING.

I THINK IF WE WANT TO DO ANYTHING SIGNIFICANT IN OUR COUNTRY, WHICH IS MEND THE DIVIDE OF RACISM, WHICH IS BRIDGE THE GAPS AND LEAD TO RACIAL RECONCILIATION, IT WILL HAVE TO BE UNCOMFORTABLE.

>> THE STRUCTURE OF THE BOOK I THINK IS -- IS VERY INTERESTING AND VERY COMPELLING.

DIFFERENT SUBJECTS ARE TREATED IN EACH ONE.

SUCH AS WHAT SHOULD YOU CALL US, YOU KNOW, AND YOU HAVE THIS WHOLE -- YOU LOOK ABOUT BACK IN HISTORY, YOU LOOK AT COLORED AND NEGRO AND AFRICAN AMERICAN AND BLACK.

AND YOU FOCUS ON ALL OF THOSE.

YOU TALK ABOUT HOW YOU CAN BE AN ALLY.

YOU TALK ABOUT HOW YOU HAVE CONVERSATIONS -- IN TERMS OF STRUCTURE, SO EACH CHAPTER STARTS WITH A QUESTION.

AND IT'S SO INTERESTING TO SEE THESE QUESTIONS BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT -- THEY WEREN'T REALLY YOUR QUESTIONS.

WHERE DO QUESTIONS COME FROM?

>> SO GREAT QUESTION -- GREAT QUESTION.

AFTER THE FIRST EPISODE, JACK, I GOT 25 MILLION VIEWS IN ABOUT FOUR DAYS.

I WAS LIKE, I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO.

BUT THE HEART OF THE SHOW WAS TO TALK TO PEOPLE.

SO I READ EVERY SINGLE EMAIL, PROBABLY 1,300 EMAILS IN THE FIRST FOUR DAYS.

AND I WOULD FLAG EMAILS OF QUESTIONS THAT I WANTED TO GET TO IN MORE DETAIL.

SO EVERY QUESTION THAT YOU SEE IN MY BOOK WHICH STARTS EVERY CHAPTER, COMES FROM A REAL PERSON, A GENUINE SPACE AND SINCERITY.

AND I HAD FLAGGED THESE QUESTIONS FROM WAY BACK WHEN.

AND I HAD TRIED TO FIND DUPLICATING THINGS.

SO I START EVERY CHAPTER WITH REAL QUESTIONS FROM REAL PEOPLE.

>> ONCE AGAIN TALKING WITH EMMANUEL ACHO WHO, AMONG OTHER ACCOMPLISHMENTS IN HIS LIFE, IS THE AUTHOR OF THE NEW BOOK TITLED "UNCOMFORTABLE CONVERSATIONS WITH A BLACK MAN."

LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT SOME SPECIFICS HERE.

IN EACH OF THESE CHAPTERS, THEY'RE SO COMPELLING.

I WANT TO TOUCH BASE ON A COUPLE OF THEM HERE.

IN ONE YOU TALK ABOUT THE FACT -- PEOPLE MIGHT FIND THIS ODD AND MAYBE COUNTERINTUITIVE.

YOU TALK ABOUT THE FACT THAT WE SHOULD STOP CELEBRATING COLORBLINDNESS.

MOST PEOPLE IF YOU ASK THEM -- AND THEY WOULD THINK IF THEY CAN SAY THEY WERE COLORBLIND THAT WOULD BE SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE A POSITIVE.

BUT YOU'RE SAYING THAT'S NOT NECESSARILY WHAT WE SHOULD BE DOING.

WHY NOT AND WHAT SHOULD WE BE DOING?

>> BECAUSE THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN INTENTION AND DIRECTION.

THE INTENTION BEHIND BEING COLORBLIND IS PURE.

IT'S TRYING TO SAY THAT I TREAT ALL PEOPLE EQUALLY BECAUSE I'M COLORBLIND WHEN, IN FACT, WHAT WE SHOULD BE DOING IS SEEING EACH OTHER'S COLORS, CULTURES, AND APPRECIATING THEM NONETHELESS.

JACK, IMAGINE HOW SILL AT THE WOULD BE IF I WALKED OUTSIDE AFTER AN OVERCAST DAY AND YOU WERE LIKE, OH, LOOK AT THAT RAIN BAY.

JACK, I CAN'T SEE THE RAINBOW, I'M COLORBLIND.

THAT'S SILLY BECAUSE WHEN YOU DON'T SEE COLOR, YOU DON'T SEE THE BEAUTY THAT COMES WITH THAT.

THERE'S A BEAUTY THAT COMES WITH MY COLOR BEING BLACK AND BEING BROWN AND THERE'S A BEAUTY THAT COMES WITH MY CULTURE.

I DON'T ASK YOU NOT TO SEE IT BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE TO NOT SEE ME.

SEE EVERY ATTRIBUTE THAT DESCRIBES ME.

MY HEIGHT, HIGH WEIGHT, WHATEVER THE CASE MAY BE.

BUT SEE THE BEAUTY THAT IS IN THAT.

SO DON'T BE COLORBLIND.

SEE COLOR AND APPRECIATE COLOR.

>> YOU ALSO TALK ABOUT IN ONE OF THE CHAPTERS, ONE OF THE CHAPTERS IS CAPTIONED "HOW TO BE AN ALLY."

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY HOW TO BE AN ALLY?

>> AGAIN, I SAY INTENTION WITHOUT DIRECTION IS MEANINGLESS.

JACK, SO MANY PEOPLE AFTER THE MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD THEY MESSAGED ME AND SAID, EMMANUEL, I WANT TO HELP, EMMANUEL, I'M HERE FOR YOU, EMMANUEL, WHAT CAN I DO?

SEE, JACK, THEY WANTED TO BE AN ALLY, BUT THEY DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO BE AN ALLY.

I WANTED TO EDUCATE MY WHITE BROTHERS AND SISTERS AND ALL FIGHT FOR EQUALITY WHICH WILL GREATLY IMPROVE IN GREAT NATION, I WANTED TO EDUCATE THEM ON HOW TO BE.

YOU GOT SHOW UP DECISIVELY, PROMPTLY, AND YOU HAVE TO BE ACCURATE IN YOUR SPEECH WHEN YOU DO SHOW UP.

SO IT'S NOT ENOUGH TO WANT TO BE AN ALLY.

A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE GREAT INTENTIONS.

WHAT ARE YOU DOING WITH THOSE INTENTIONS?

>> I MENTIONED IN THE INTRODUCTION THAT YOU HAD STARTED THIS VIDEO SERIES SHORTLY AFTER THAT TRAGIC AND HISTORIC DEATH OF GEORGE FLOYD.

AND HOW THIS -- THE BOOK HAS FLOWN, IF YOU WILL, FROM THAT.

LET ME GO BACK TO THE VIDEO SERIES AND ASK YOU -- THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS YOU'RE DOING.

MENTIONED YOU WERE A HOST AND ANALYST WITH FOX SPORTS.

YOU DO MANY THINGS.

WHAT AMEND YOU SAY, ALL RIGHT, THIS IS WHAT I GOT TO, DO RIGHT TIME AND PLACE TO SIT DOWN AND CREATE THIS VIDEO SERIES AND HAVE THESE UNCOMFORTABLE CONVERSATIONS?

>> YOU KNOW, I'VE NEVER ANSWERED THIS QUESTION LIKE THIS, BUT NOW THAT I THINK ABOUT IT I THINK IT WAS MY FORM OF GRIEF.

I'VE NEVER SAID THAT BEFORE.

BUT NOW FOR THE FIRST TIME I'VE -- IT'S DAWNED ON ME JUST NOW THAT SOME PEOPLE WERE CRYING, SOME PEOPLE WERE SCREAMING, SOME PEOPLE WERE QUIET, SOME PEOPLE WERE DISTRAUGHT.

I WAS A LITTLE BIT OF ALL THOSE THINGS.

BUT I KNEW I HAD TO SPEAK, I HAD TO GET MY FEELINGS OUT THERE.

JACK, I'M NOT THE TYPE OF PERSON WHO LIKES TO COMPLAIN, WHETHER IT IS JUSTIFIED AND DO NOTHING ABOUT IT.

AND SO WHILE SO MANY OF MY BLACK BROTHERS AND SISTERS WERE JUSTIFIABLY MARCHING AND PROTESTING AND SEEKING JUSTICE IN DIFFERENT FORMS, I REALIZED THAT MY VOICE IS MY SWORD.

AND SO I'M GOING TO FIGHT FOR JUSTICE THE WAY I KNOW HOW.

>> WERE YOU SURPRISED BY THAT EXTRAORDINARY REACTION?

AS YOU SAID, MILLIONS OF VIEWS.

RIGHT NOW I THINK LAST TIME I LOOKED IT WAS MORE THAN 70 MILLION VIEWS OF THIS.

AGAIN, IF YOU WATCH IT, YOU MAKE CERTAIN TO BRING ON PEOPLE AND CONVERSATIONS THAT ARE UNCOMFORTABLE.

WERE YOU SURPRISED AT SUCH A POSITIVE REACTION TO IT?

>> YEAH.

YOU CAN'T NOT BE SURPRISED WHEN ONE EPISODE OF JUST ME SITTING IN AN ALL WHITE ROOM GETS 25 MILLION VIEWS IN -- IN FOUR DAYS.

PUT THIS IN CONTEXT -- I PLAYED IN THE NFL, BUT I WASN'T LIKE A HALL OF FAMER.

IT'S NOT LIKE I'M MICHAEL STRAHAN.

MAKE NO MISTAKE.

LET'S CATEGORIZE ME PROPERLY IN MY NFL CAREER.

SO WHILE, JACK, I KNEW IT WAS A GREAT CONCEPT, I DIDN'T KNOW THE RECEPTION WOULD BE SO RADICAL.

I DIDN'T KNOW THAT I WOULD GET CALLS FROM PEOPLE LIKE MATTHEW McCONAUGHEY WITH NO CALLER I.D.

NUMBERS, JENNIFER ANISTON AND REESE WITHERSPOON WERE TO REACH OUT, THAT OPRAH WOULD CALL ME, THAT COMMISSIONER OF THE NFLT ENVELOPE -- NFL ROGER GOODELL WOULD CALL ME.

>> LAST QUESTION, A MINUTE AND A HALF OR SO.

AGAIN, IT'S SOMETHING THAT YOU SAY IN THE BOOK THAT STRUCK ME.

AND YOU SAY THAT -- THIS MIGHT BE SURPRISING FOR PEOPLE.

YOU SAY ENDING RACISM IS -- NOT A FINISH LINE, RIGHT.

THAT WE WILL CROSS.

RATHER, IT'S A ROAD WE'LL TRAVEL.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?

>> IN SPORTS YOU HAVE AN OBJECTIVE TO SCORE A TOUCH IN FOOTBALL.

YOU CROSS THE THICK WHITE LINE, YOU SCORE A TOUCHDOWN, YOU'RE GOOD.

IN SOCCER, YOU CROSS THE THRESHOLD, GOAL.

IN TRACK AND FIELD, YOU CROSS THE 100-METER MARKER, THE FINISH LINE, YOU KNOW THERE IS AN END POINT.

BUT I REALIZED WITH RACIAL RECONCILIATION, JACK, THERE ISN'T SOME SORT OF END POINT THAT WE KNOW WE WILL GET TO.

SO WE MUST CONTINUE TO TRAVEL THE ROAD TOGETHER.

WE WON'T LOOK UP IN 30 DAYS FROM NOW AND SAY "WE DID IT, WE SOLVED RACISM."

THAT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

WHAT WE CAN LOOK UP AND SAY IS, "WE'RE DOING IT, WE'RE SOLVING IT TOGETHER."

>> WE'RE ON THAT ROAD.

ONCE AGAIN, THE BOOK IS TITLED "UNCOMFORTABLE CONVERSATIONS WITH A BLACK MAN."

EMMANUEL ACHO, IT IS A MARVELOUS BOOK.

IT IS SUCH A -- AN IMPORTANT AND THOUGHTFUL AND COMPELLING DIRECTION FOR US TO FOLLOW.

AS HAVE BEEN YOUR VIDEO SERIES.

SO EMMANUEL, A PLEASURE, MAN.

YOU BE WELL, AND THANK YOU SO MUCH.

I'LL LOOK FORWARD TO TALKING TO YOU AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU, THE PLEASURE'S MINE.

>> TAKE CARE NOW.

>>> "METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, DAGASTINO FOUNDATION, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG,