>>> TONIGHT, OUT OF SIGHT, BUT NOT OUT OF MIND -- MICROAGGRESSIONS HAVE BIPOC EMPLOYEES DREADING A RETURN TO THE OFFICE.

AND A HOLY MISSION TO UKRAINE.

A BROOKLYN PRIEST SHARE HIS FIRSTHAND ACCOUNT FROM THE WAR TORN COUNTRY.

"METROFOCUS" STARTS RIGHT NOW.

♪♪ >>> THIS IS "METROFOCUS," WITH RAFAEL PI ROMAN, JACK FORD, AND JENNA FLANAGAN.

"METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, THE AMBROSE MONELL FOUNDATION.

AND BY -- >>> GOOD EVENING.

AND WELCOME TO "METROFOCUS."

I'M JENNA FLANAGAN.

THE CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC HAS UPENDED HOW AND WHERE MANY OF US DO OUR JOBS.

ONLY ABOUT 8% OF MANHATTAN OFFICE WORKERS HAVE ACTUALLY RETURNED TO OFFICE WORK FULL-TIME.

ACCORDING TO A RECENT POLL BY PARTNERSHIP FOR NEW YORK CITY, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT MAYOR ERIC ADAMS WHO SEES RETURN TO OFFICE AS CRITICAL TO THE CITY'S RECOVERY WOULD LIKE TO CHANGE.

BUT FOR MANY EMPLOYEES OF COLOR, NOT JUST HERE, BUT ACROSS THE COUNTRY, REMOTE WORK HAS MEANT A WELCOME ESCAPE FROM RACISM AND MICROAGGRESSIONS.

THE EVERYDAY SUBTLE, INDIRECT, AND OFTEN UNINTENTIONAL INTERACTIONS THAT COMMUNICATE A BIAS TOWARDS MEMBERS OF A MARGINALIZED GROUP.

IN FACT, SURVEILLANCE VASE SHOW THAT REMOTE WORK HAS VASTLY IMPROVED WORK LIFE FOR MANY BLACK EMPLOYEES AND THAT THEY FEEL MORE VALUED AND SUPPORTED WHEN THEY'RE WORKING FROM HOME.

THAT IS PARTICULARLY TRUE FOR WOMEN OF COLOR.

SO, THE QUESTION IS, WHAT IS THE MENTAL HEALTH IMPACT OF A RETURN TO OFFICE FOR EMPLOYEES OF COLOR?

AND HOW CAN COMPANIES MAKE SURE THAT GAINS OF REMOTE WORK ARE NOT LOST WHEN THEY BRING EMPLOYEES BACK IN JOINING ME NOW TO ANSWER THOSE VERY BIG QUESTIONS, AS PART OF OUR CONVERSATION ON MENTAL HEALTH SERIES, IS TARA J. FRANK, AN EQUITIES STRATEGIST WHO ADVISES WORKPLACES ON ISSUE OF EQUITY, DIVERSITY, AND INCLUSION.

SO GREAT TO HAVE YOU ON "METROFOCUS."

THANK YOU FOR JOINING ME.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME, JENNA, I APPRECIATE IT.

>> LIKE I SAID, THESE ARE A LOT OF REALLY BIG ISSUES, BUT FIRST OFF I WANT TO TALK ABOUT JUST THE DIFFERENCE IN WORK FOR PEOPLE OF COLOR.

WHEN I MENTIONED SORT OF IN THE INTRO THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE OF COLOR, BIPOC CLOSES HAVE FELT THAT THEY HAVE A BETTER WORK LIFE -- I DON'T MEAN A BETTER WORK/LIFE BALANCE BUT THEY FEEL MORE SUPPORTED WORKING REMOTELY, CAN YOU EXPAND ON WHAT THAT MIGHT MEAN FOR PEOPLE?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

SO, MANY PEOPLE OF COLOR, AND HONESTLY ESPECIALLY BLACK PEOPLE AT WORK FELT LIKE OVER TIME THEY WERE GOING INTO THE OFFICE BRACING FOR OFFENSE.

WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS SO ACCUSTOMED, RIGHT, TO EXPERIENCING THOSE MICROAGGRESSIONS THAT YOU DEFINED THAT THEY WERE ALMOST ANTICIPATING THEM, WHICH WAS PUTTING ON TO PEOPLE'S SHOULDERS THIS BURDEN, IF YOU WILL, THIS EMOTIONAL AND MENTAL BURDEN.

SO BEING AT HOME, WORKING REMOTELY, THEY WEREN'T AS WORRIED ABOUT THAT.

THEY WEREN'T EXPERIENCING IT DAY IN AND DAY OUT, AND THOSE MICROAGGRESSIONS CAN LOOK ANYWHERE FROM, CAN I TOUCHURE HAIR?

TO JUST BEING IGNORED IN A MEETING, NOT BEING INCLUDED, RIGHT, IN DECISION-MAKING PROCESSES OR CONVERSATIONS BEING LEFT OFF OF IMPORTANT COMMUNICATION.

SO IT REALLY DOES RUN THE GAMUT, BUT PEOPLE FELT LIKE THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO BE IN THE ROOMS, EXPERIENCING THE MOMENTS OF INSULT OR OFFENSE.

AND WHEN YOU SAY THAT PEOPLE FELT MORE VALUED AT HOME, I HONESTLY THINK WHAT'S HAPPENING IS THEY JUST WEREN'T FEELING DEVALUED.

>> OF COURSE.

I'M ALSO WONDERING IF EVERYTHING THAT HAS TRANSPIRED DURING THIS PANDEMIC -- WE'VE COVERED SO MANY STORIES WHERE IT HAS LAID BARE SOME OF THE INEQUITIES, THE INEQUALITY IN HEALTH CARE, ET CETERA, BUT ALSO THERE WAS A SOCIAL MOVEMENT, THE UNTIMELY UNFORTUNATE MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD LED TO A HUGE LONG OVERDUE CONVERSATION IN WORKPLACES.

DID THAT ALSO CHANGE THE WAY A LOT OF BIPOC EMPLOYEES MIGHT HAVE FELT ABOUT THEIR COMPANY?

>> YEAH, INTERESTINGLY IT'S A DOUBLE EDGED SWORD TO BE HONEST WITH YOU.

SO, MANY YEARS AGO WE WERE ALL TAUGHT NOT TO TALK ABOUT RACE.

ARE, OR POLITICS AT WORK.

THOSE ARE THE THREE THINGS YOU DID NOT DISCUSS.

THEN AFTER GEORGE FLOYD WAS MURDERED, EVERYBODY WANTED TO TALK ABOUT RACE ALL OF A SUDDEN.

PEOPLE WERE ASKING THEIR BLACK COLLEAGUES TO TELL THEM THEIR BLACK STORY.

SO ON ONE HAND YOU WERE HAPPY THAT PEOPLE WERE FINALLY READY TO TALK ABOUT SUCH A MAJOR INFLUENCER ON YOUR OVERALL WORKPLACE EXPERIENCE.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THOUGH, PEOPLE ASKING YOU TO CONTINUALLY KIND OF DRAW OUT YOUR TRAUMA, IF YOU WILL, TO ACCESS IT, TALK ABOUT IT, PROCESS IT DAY IN DAY OUT BECAME A MENTAL HEALTH AND EMOTIONAL DRAG ON OUR GENERAL WELLNESS.

SO IT'S A CATCH-22.

IT'S GOOD FOR US TO ACKNOWLEDGE AND BE OPEN ABOUT THE PROBLEMS WE'RE EXPERIENCING.

IT ALSO CAN REALLY BE DIFFICULT TO HAVE THOSE CONVERSATIONS OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

AND REMOTE WORK ALLOWED US TO AT LEAST BE IN OUR LITERAL SAFE SPACES WHILE THESE CONVERSATIONS WERE HAPPENING, WHICH GAVE US A SORT OF PROTECTION.

>> IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE WHAT YOU DESCRIBE IN THE ASKING PEOPLE, FOR EXAMPLE, TO TELL THEIR BLACK STORIES, AS YOU SAID, WAS SORT OF A DOUBLE EDGED SWORD, AND MIGHT SPEAK TO A WORD THAT I KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE HEARD LATELY BUT MIGHT NOT FULLY UNDERSTAND, AND THAT IS MICROAGGRESSIONS.

SO CAN YOU EXPAND, WHAT EXACTLY IS THAT?

>> AMICROAGGRESSION IS DEFINED AS A SUBTLE ACT OF INDIGNITY THAT BASICALLY TELLS PEOPLE, YOU DO NOT BELONG.

SO YOU EITHER SHINE A LIGHT ON AN ELEMENT OF A PERSON'S PERSONHOOD OR WAY OF BEING IN THE WORLD THAT EXACERBATES THE DIFFERENCES, RIGHT, BETWEEN THE PERSON DOING THE ACTING AND THE PERSON BEING ACTED UPON.

AND THOSE MICROAGGRESSIONS OVER TIME START TO FEEL LIKE MACROAGGRESSIONS.

THEY DON'T FEEL MICRO OVERTIME BECAUSE THE FREQUENCY WITH WHICH PEOPLE EXPERIENCE THOSE CAN START TO CREATE SEPARATION BETWEEN AN EMPLOYEE AND AN EMPLOYER.

>> WHAT ABOUT THE PUSHBACK THAT SOME EMPLOYERS MIGHT HAVE IN SAYING THAT THERE IS A CERTAIN TYPE OF WORKPLACE DECOR RUM.

LIKE, THIS IS -- YOU'RE NOT AT HOME.

YOU'RE NOT IN YOUR SOCIAL SETTING.

THIS IS A PROFESSIONAL SETTING, SO THERE ARE CERTAIN STANDARDS THAT WE EXPECT OUR EMPLOYEES TO ADHERE TO.

>> I THINK IT'S OKAY AND ACCEPTABLE AND NORMAL TO HAVE STANDARDS OF CONDUCT, IF YOU WILL.

BUT THOSE SHOULD DEFINITELY BE ROOTED IN BUSINESS CRITICAL ISSUES.

THEY SHOULD NOT BE ROOTED IN PERCEPTION.

THEY SHOULD NOT BE ROOTED IN A NARROW DEFINITION OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A LEADER.

WHAT WE HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE IS THAT FOR DECADES NOW, RIGHT -- EVEN LONGER IN SOME COMPANIES -- WE'VE DEFINED LEADERSHIP BASEDEN A WHITE MALE MODEL.

BECAUSE OF THAT WHEN ANYBODY SHOWS UP IN A WAY THAT DOES NOT FIT THAT DEFINITION OR THAT VIEW, WHEN THEY COMMUNICATE IN A WAY THAT DOESN'T FIT THAT VIEW, WHEN THEY LEAD IN A WAY THAT DOESN'T FIT THAT VIEW, WE AUTOMATICALLY ASSUME THEY WERE NOT LEADER LIKE.

AND WHEN WE HAVE THAT KIND OF OPINION OR PERCEPTION OF SOMEONE, IT INHIBITS THEIR GROWTH TREMENDOUSLY AND ALSO THEIR ABILITY TO INFLUENCE AND TO IMPACT.

SO SOME OF IT IS ABOUT OUR LENS, RIGHT?

NOT SO MUCH ABOUT HOW THE OTHER PERSON IS SHOWING UP, AND WE REALLY HAVE TO CHECK OURSELVES ON THAT MOVING FORWARD.

>> OF COURSE.

I DO WANT TO ZERO MANY, THOUGH, ON THE UNIQUE EXPERIENCES OF WOMEN OF COLOR IN THE WORKPLACE.

AND AS I ASK THAT QUESTION, I DO WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT BIPOC WOMEN IS A LARGE VARIED GROUP.

SO WITHIN THAT GROUP ARE THERE DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE OF MARGINALIZATION IN THE WORKPLACE?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

AT THE END OF DAY, IN ANY CORPORATE ENTITY, AND OUR PLACES OF WORK ARE NO EXCEPTION, YOU HAVE THE PEOPLE OF POWER IN THE CENTER.

AND IN THE CENTER IS EVERYTHING YOU NEED, ACCESS TO POWER NETWORKS AND KNOWLEDGE CENTERS AND THE OPPORTUNITY.

THE REALITY IS, THE MORE DIFFERENT YOU ARE FROM THOSE PEOPLE IN POWER, THE LESS CONNECTION YOU HAVE TO THAT INSIGHT, THAT ACCESS, AND THAT OPPORTUNITY.

AND WOMEN OF COLOR HAPPEN TO BE THE FURTHEST REMOVED FROM THAT POWER PROFILE THAT MOST OF US ARE KIND OF CONTENDING WITH TODAY.

SO WOMEN OF COLOR THEN DON'T ALWAYS HAVE ALL THE INFORMATION THEY NEED TO BE SUCCESSFUL.

THEY DON'T HAVE TO SPONSORS AND CONNECTEDNESS THEY NEED TO BE SUCCESSFUL, AND THEY CERTAINLY ARE LESS LIKELY TO GET OPPORTUNITY TO SHOW AND PROVE WHAT THEY'RE CAPABLE OF ON THAT BIG PROJECT OR WITH THAT CLIENT OR THE NEXT GREAT OPPORTUNITY, AND A LOT OF THIS IS FUELED, AS YOU MIGHT IMAGINE, BY AFFINITY BIAS OR PROXIMITY BIAS.

SO THERE ARE REAL CHALLENGES HERE THAT ARE JUST DIMENSIONS OF DIFFERENCE CREATE FOR US, WHETHER WE INTEND FOR THEM TO DO SO OR NOT.

>> AS YOU MENTION, A LOT OF THINS WOMEN OF COLOR BACK S THAT ALL WOMEN OF COLOR, OR ARE YOU SPEAKING OF CERTAIN GROUPS OF WOMEN OF COLOR, SPECIFICALLY LATINO WOMEN, BLACK WOMEN?

ET CETERA.

AGAIN, BECAUSE BIPOC IS A LARGE GROUP.

>> YEAH, IT'S A VERY LARGE GROUP, AND SOME OF THE ISSUES OR CHALLENGES ARE CERTAINLY NUANCED, BUT YOU KNOW, IN MOST CORPORATIONS YOU HAVE WHITE MEN IN THE CENTER.

THE NEXT GROUP OUT IS WHITE WOMEN, MEN OF COLOR, AND THEN WOMEN OF COLOR, SO ALL WOMEN OF COLOR ARE FURTE REMOVED FROM THE CENTER, THE POWER WHERE ALL THAT GOOD STUFF HANGS OUT, BUT THERE ARE NUANCED EXPERIENCES.

SO FOR INSTANCE, I KNOW MANY LATINO WOMEN FEEL MISUNDERSTOOD, RIGHT?

WE DID A BODY OF RESEARCH FOR MY BOOK WHERE WE ASKED HUNDREDS OF EMPLOYEES ACROSS ALL DIMENSIONS OF DIFFERENCE TO TELL US STORY OF TIMES THEY FELT SEEN, RESPECTED, VALUED AND PROTECTED, AND TO TELL US STORIES OF TIMES THEY FELT INVISIBLE AND DISRESPECTED AND UNDERAPPRECIATED AND SCRUTINIZED.

SOME OF THE NUANCES WE WERE ABLE TO DRAW OUT FROM THAT RESEARCH WERE REALLY FASCINATING.

SO, AGAIN, FOR LATINO WOMEN THEY FELT MISUNDERSTOOD.

WASN'T JUST THAT THEY FELT INVISIBLE, BUT MISCHARACTERIZED AT WORK.

THAT WAS A BIG CONCERN AND OFTEN CAUSED THEM TO THINK DIFFERENTLY ABOUT THEIR PLACE IN A COMPANY.

FOR BLACK PEOPLE AT WORK, THEY OFTEN FELT DISRESPECTED AT WORK, RIGHT?

AND THAT MOMENT OF DISRESPECT WAS REALLY ACUTE.

CAUSES A VERY STRONG EMOTIONAL REACTION AND IS OFTEN THE MOMENT THAT LEADS TO DEPARTURE, RIGHT, OR LEADS THEM TO EXIT.

SO THERE ARE NUANCES IN THE GROUPS DEPENDING ON WHAT THEY'RE EXPERIENCING OUTSIDE THE COMPANY THAT THEY BRING WITH THEM INSIDE THE COMPANY.

BUT GENERALLY, WOMEN OF COLOR AS A WHOLE ARE NOT GETTING AS MANY OPPORTUNITIES TO GROW.

THEY'RE BEING PROMOTED AT A LESSER RATE AND CERTAINLY PAID MOST OFTEN AT A LESSER RATE AS WELL.

>> OF COURSE.

WOMEN'S EQUAL PAYDAYS, THE ONES WE HAVE THROUGHOUT THE YEAR, ARE INDICATIVE OF THAT.

I WANT TO ASK MY FINAL QUESTION, BECAUSE WE HAVE ABOUT A MINUTE LEFT.

FOR PEOPLE WHO MAY HAVE HAD DIRECTIVES GIVEN FROM THEIR JOB, THEIR BUSINESS THEY WORK FOR THAT BACK TO OFFICE IS DEFINITELY HAPPENING AND THEY'RE DREADING A RETURN TO THE OFFICE, WHAT WOULD BE YOUR ADVICE FOR SOMEONE TO PROTECT THEIR MENTAL HEALTH AND WELL BEING?

>> THIS IS SUCH AN IMPORTANT QUESTION.

I WOULD SAY NUMBER ONE, TAKE WHAT YOU'VE LEARNED IN THIS TIME YOU HAVE BEEN AWAY ABOUT WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE TO CARE FOR YOURSELF, TO GIVE YOURSELF GRACE AND SPACE, AND TRY TO PRESERVE AS MUCH OF THAT AS YOU CAN.

BUT ALSO REMEMBER THERE'S A FLIPSIDE TO THIS -- GOING BACK TO THE OFFICE ALSO INCREASES VISIBILITY, AND WITHOUT VISIBILITY, WE DON'T REALLY GET THE OPPORTUNITY TO CONTRIBUTE AT OUR HIGHEST POSSIBLE LEVEL.

SO THERE ARE PUTS AND TAKES, AND I THINK IF WE CAN REMEMBER THAT, WE CAN GO BACK TO THE OFFICE WITH A MORE BALANCED POINT OF VIEW AND A HEALTHIER MIND SET.

>> ALL RIGHT, WELL, LISTEN, MY GUEST WAS TARA J. FRANK.

I WANT TO THANK YOU SO MUCH.

TARA, AGAIN, IS AN EQUITY STRATEGIST WHO ADVISES COMPANIES ON WORKPLACE CULTURE AND ISSUE OF DIVERSITY, EQUITY, AND INCLUSION.

TARA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING TIME TO HAVE THIS CRITICALLY IMPORTANT CONVERSATION WITH US ON "METROFOCUS."

>> THANK YOU.

♪♪ >>> I'M RAFAEL PI ROMAN.

WELCOME TO "METROFOCUS."

FOR NEARLY THREE MONTHS AMERICANS HAVE WATCHED AS THE RUSSIAN INVASION OF UKRAINE UNFOLDS IN EVER MORE BRUTAL AND FRIGHTENING WAYS.

SEEMS LIKE EVERY DAY THERE ARE NEW STORIES OF HORROR AND DEATH WITH NO END IN SITE.

UNLIKE OUR NEXT GUEST, FEW OF US WITNESSED THE IMPACT OF THE WAR FIRSTHAND.

MONSIGNOR IS THE FORMER VICAR FOR COMMUNICATIONS FOR -- BROOKLYN AND LONG TIME DIRECTOR OF ST. JOSEPHS IN PROSPECT HEIGHTS.

HE WAS NAMED THE NEW DIRECTOR OF THE PONTIFF CAL SOCIETIES OF THE UNITED STATES.

IN HIS NEW ROLE HE TRAVELLED TO UKRAINE DURING THEIR HOLY WEEK TO MEET WITH THE PEOPLE WHO ARE SUFFERING UNDER THIS TERRIBLE WAR AND TO RENDER HUMANITARIAN AS WELL AS SPIRITUAL AID.

HE IS SAFELY BACK IN THE CITY AND JOINING US NOW TO TALK ABOUT HIS EXPERIENCE IN UKRAINE AND WHAT HE WITNESSED THERE.

MONSIGNOR HARRINGTON, WELCOME HOME AND WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> GREAT TO BE WITH YOU, RAFAEL.

>> FIRST OF ALL, I'M GUESSING THAT THE TYPICAL MISSION OF THE PONTIFFICLE IS NOT A BRUTAL WAR.

COULD YOU TELL US WHAT THE MISSION OF YOUR NEW ORGANIZATION IS AND WHY YOU DECIDED TO GO TO UKRAINE YOURSELF?

>> SURE.

SO, THE SOCIETIES ARE FOUR DIFFERENT SOCIETIES.

THEY DO DIFFERENT THINGS.

ONE IS TO STAND UP NEW CHURCHES IN MISSION TERRITORIES.

THE OTHER IS TO STAND UP CATHOLIC SCHOOLS AND CHILD CARES.

THE OTHER IS TO SET UP SEMINARIES FOR PLACES OF STUDY FOR NUNS AND PRIESTS, AND THE SECOND IS TO REMIND EVERYBODY WE'RE ALL CALLED TO BE MISSIONARIES, EVEN HERE IN NEW YORK.

YOU'RE ALL CALLED TO BE A MISSIONARY, AND THE WORK OF THE SOCIETY IS TO SEE ALL PEOPLE COME TOGETHER.

OUR FOUND RESS WAS KATHLEEN JERICHO.

WE'RE GOING TO CELEBRATE HER IN A COUPLE OF DAYS.

SHE WAS A VERY WEALTHY WOMAN BEGINNING OF THE 1800s AND ESTABLISHED, ESSENTIALLY, A PROGRAM AMONG OUR EMPLOYEES WHERE EVERYBODY CAME TOGETHER TO PRAY THE ROSARY AND TO GIVE A DOLLAR FOR THE MISSIONS, A PENNY FOR THE MISSIONS.

LONG STORY SHORT, THIS WOMAN ENDS UP BROKE.

SHE GAVE EVERYTHING SHE HAD TO THE POOR, AND SHE'S GOING TO BE BEATIFIED IN JUST A COUPLE WEEKS NOW.

>> HMM.

WHERE DID YOU DECIDE TO GO TO UKRAINE YOURSELF?

>> ACTUALLY, THE UKRAINE IS A RECIPIENT OF SOME OF THE FUNDING FROM THE MISSION SOCIETIES, PARTICULARLY THROUGH OUR HOLY CHILDHOOD.

WHY?

BECAUSE COMMUNISM, FOR 70 YEARS -- WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE UKRAINE, THEY SUFFERED 70 YEARS UNDER COMMUNISM.

YOU KNOW, THEY SUFFERED THREE YEARS UNDER NAZIISM.

AND AS A RESULT, THE CHURCH IN MANY PARTS OF THE UKRAINE IS AN INFANT CHURCH.

IT'S A BRAND-NEW CHURCH.

PEOPLE SUFFERED UNDER COMMUNISM.

AS A RESULT, WE PROVIDE FUNDING FOR THE CHURCH IN THOSE AREAS BECAUSE OF THE FUNDING THAT WE PROVIDE, I DECIDED TO BE WITH THEM FOR HOLY WEEK, HOLY THURSDAY, GOOD FRIDAY, AND FOR EASTER SUNDAY.

>> YEAH.

SO, WHERE DID YOU TRAVEL INSIDE UKRAINE?

WHO DID YOU MEET WITH?

AND WHAT DID YOU SEE?

>> WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE UKRAINE, FIRST OFF, IT'S IMPORTANT FOR US TO REALIZE, LIKE, HISTORICALLY, THE UKRAINE IS A LOT OF DIFFERENT TERRITORY, AND THAT'S PART OF THE REASON FOR THIS CRISIS RIGHT NOW.

SO, THE WESTERN PART OF UKRAINE, LVIV, WHERE I HAD STARTED WAS ACTUALLY PART OF THE AUSTRO-HUNGARIAN UMPIRE, POLAND.

I WENT TO LVIV, CHERNOBYL, AND THEN TO KYIV, WHICH IS THE CAPITAL AND OF COURSE THE SUBJECT OF GREAT ANXIETY.

AND WHEN I WAS IN KYIV IT'S ACTUALLY THAT I WENT TO BUCHA, THE PLACE WHERE THAT TERRIBLE ATROCITIES HAD TAKEN PLACE.

DURING MY VISIT, MY VISITS BASICALLY FOR PASTORAL VISITS, AND SO -- YOU KNOW, POPE FRANCIS SAID, YOU HAVE TO LOOK IN PEOPLE'S EYES AND TOUCH THEIR WOUNDS, NOT JUST SIMPLY GIVE THEM THE RESOURCES THAT THEY LOOK FOR.

AND THAT'S WHAT THIS TRIP REALLY WAS.

AND IT STARTED WITH LITURGICLE SERVICES IN THE GREEK CHURCH.

THEN IN THE AFTERNOON I WENT TO VISIT WITH THE PEOPLE WHOSE LIVES WERE AFFECTED BY THIS.

I LIVED ACTUALLY WITH REFUGEES AT ONE OF MONASTEIES IN LVIV.

THEN I MET WITH THE MAJOR ARCHBISHOP FOR THE GREEK CHURCH, CELEBRATED WITH HIM, AND THEN WENT TO BUCHA WITH THE PEOPLE WHOSE LIVES WERE SO RADICALLY CHANGED.

>> BUCHA, AND I KNOW THIS BECAUSE I READ AN ARTICLE ABOUT YOUR TRIP, BUCHA WAS THE PLACE WHERE THEY FOUND A MASS GRAVE.

AND SOME OF THE THINGS YOU'RE QUOTED AS SAYING YOU SAW, YOU SAW ELDERLY WALKING AROUND BECAUSE THEIR HOME WAS DESTROYED, AND YOU SAW THIS MASS GRAVE.

POPE FRANCIS SEEMED TO COMPARE WHAT'S HAPPENING IN UKRAINE TO WHAT HAPPENED IN RWANDA 30 YEARS AGO.

FROM WHAT YOU SAW, WOULD YOU GO THAT FAR?

>> WHAT'S FASCINATING AND WHY I THINK THE POPE IS SAYING THIS -- AND ONE THING HI ASKED MANY OF THE PEOPLE I MET, INCLUDING THE MAJOR ARCHBISHOP AT WELL AS MANY OF THE PEOPLE -- I WAS THERE FOR GOOD FRIDAY.

AND IN THE WEST WE HAVE A TRADITION WHERE YOU SING ABOUT THE SEVEN LAST WORDS OF CHRIST.

ONE OF THE SEVEN LAST WORDS IS, FATHER, FORGIVE THEM, THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO.

AND I REMEMBER POSING THIS QUESTION TO PEOPLE WHO ARE RIGHT NOW EXPERIENCING OPPRESSION.

AND THIS IS THE REAL CHALLENGE FOR PEOPLE OF FAITH.

I SAY THAT BECAUSE PRIOR TO THIS CONFLICT, THE UKRAINIANS AND RUSSIANS ARE SLAVS.

THEY WOULD HAVE SEEN THEMSELVES AS BROTHERS.

BUT NOW AS A RESULT OF THIS CONFLICT, IT'S VERY CLEAR THE UKRAINIANS SEE THEMSELVES NOT AS A BROTHER OF THE RUSSIANS, PARTICULARLY BECAUSE OF THIS OPPRESSION.

AND WHAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT HERE IS THAT MANY OF THE PEOPLE LIVING IN UKRAINE HAVE FAMILY IN RUSSIA.

SO, THE CHALLENGE HERE IS THAT YOU CAN HAVE A SISTER LIVING IN UKRAINE AND ANOTHER LIVING IN RUSSIA, AND THEY'RE SO POLARIZED AS A RESULT OF THIS CONFLICT BECAUSE THE UKRAINIANS CAN'T UNDERSTAND, HOW COULD YOU ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN TO US?

WHEN WE SPEAK ABOUT THE ATROCITIES, THE FACT IS THAT THE UNITED STATES AND OTHER COUNTRIES THAT ENGAGE IN WAR, THERE ARE SOMETIMES WAR ATROCITIES BUT IT'S NOT THE STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE OF OUR COUNTRY TO COMMIT WAR CRIMES.

IF THERE IS A WAR CRIME COMMITTED IT'S TRIED.

THERE'S A TRIAL.

THIS TEAMS TO BE A STRATEGY ON THE PART OF THE RUSSIAN ARMY, AND THAT'S PART OF THE CHALLENGE.

>> HOW DID THE FAITHFUL, WHEN YOU SPOKE TO THEM, HOW DID THEY RESPOND?

I MEAN, HOW ARE THEY FOLLOWING THE CHRIST COMMAND TO LOVE YOUR ENEMY WHEN THE ENEMY IS -- LOOKS LIKE IT'S TARGETING CIVILIANS ON PURPOSE?

>> WELL, THAT'S EXACTLY, THAT'S THE CHALLENGE.

ONE BEAUTIFUL YOUNG WOMAN, SHE WAS ABOUT 20 YEARS OLD, AND SHE WAS SO PASSIONATE ABOUT UKRAINE.

SHE HAD FLED KHARKIV, A PLACE OF GREAT CONFLICT, AND WHEN I ASKED HER THIS QUESTION, HE FACE BECAME ALL RED, AND SHE BROKE DOWN CRYING.

SHE SAID, FATHER, I KNOW I AM SUPPOSED TO LOVE THEM, BUT I HATE THEM.

AND THIS IS VERY UNDERSTANDABLE, RIGHT?

AND THE TRUTH IS IS THAT HOW WE FEEL IS DIFFERENT THAN WHAT WE DO.

>> MM-HMM.

>> AND WHAT WE DO -- AND THIS IS IMPORTANT FOR ALL PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND.

I CAN'T CHANGE HOW I MIGHT FEEL ABOUT SOMEBODY, BUT WHAT I DO WITH HOW I FEEL IS REALLY THE QUESTION.

THAT'S NOT TO SAY YOU ALLOW YOURSELF TO CONTINUE TO BE OPPRESSED.

THAT'S WHY IT'S JUST THE UKRAINIANS ARE PUSHING BACK ON THIS OPPRESSION, BUT THEY CANNOT BECOME LIKE THEIR OPPRESSORS.

THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE.

>> GENERALLY OVER ALL YOU MET SOME PEOPLE.

WHAT WAS THEIR RESPONSE TO YOU THERE?

BESIDES THE AID YOU WERE BRINGING, YOUR VERY PRESENCE, HOW DID THEY RESPOND TO THAT?

>> ON GOOD FRIDAY AT THE CATHEDRAL IN KYIV, THE MAJOR ARCHBISHOP -- THE CHURCH WAS VERY EMPTY.

YOU CAN IMAGINE MANY OF THE PEOPLE HAD LEFT.

THERE ARE A NUMBER OF PRIESTS WHO WERE THERE AND SOME PEOPLE WHO HAD STAYED BEHIND.

AND HE CAME UP TO ME AND SAID, MONSIGNOR, WHY WOULD YOU COME HERE?

AND I SAID TO HIM JUST WHAT I TELL TO YOU, POPE FRANCIS TELLS US WE HAVE TO LOOK IN THE EYES AND TOUCH THE WOUNDS, SO I'M HERE TO PRAY WITH YOU.

AND I KNOW THAT MY PRESENCE THERE MEANT A GREAT DEAL TO HIM, BECAUSE EVEN IN THE CHURCH YOU CAN FEEL A BIT, DOES ANYBODY UNDERSTAND WHAT'S HAPPENING TO US?

THINK ABOUT ANY TIME YOU HAVE BEEN SICK.

YOU FEEL ALONE, ISOLATED.

AND SO I THINK OUR PRESENCE -- PARTICULARLY BECAUSE I WAS GOING WITH SOME AMERICANS, THEY FELT THEY WERE NOT ALONE, THEY WERE NOT ABANDONED.

AND I THINK IT WAS A SOURCE OF GREAT CONSOLATION, JUST SIMPLY TO BE PRESENT AND PRAY.

I'LL TELL YOU A STORY ABOUT A JOURNALIST.

ONE OF THE JOURNALISTS WHO WAS OUT WITH US WHEN WE WENT TO BUCHA, SHE WAS ACTUALLY JEWISH, AND SHE TOLD ME THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME SHE LEFT HER APARTMENT.

AND IT WAS STUNNING FOR HER.

AND AT THE END, TOWARDS THE END OF THE DAY, SHE PULLED ME ASIDE, AND SHE WAS VERY, VERY EMOTIONAL.

AND SHE SAID, I DIDN'T SUPPORT THE MILITARY.

I DIDN'T SUPPORT THIS PRESIDENT, AND NOW ANY TIME I SEE THESE SOLDIERS I JUST WANT TO HUG THEM AND KISS THEM AND TELL THEM THANK YOU.

AND AGAIN, THEY ALSO -- I DID NOT KNOW SHE WAS JEWISH AT THIS TIME.

I WAS ASKING HER THIS QUESTION ABOUT FORGIVENESS.

SHE TELLS ME SHE'S JEWISH.

THEN I TOLD HER A STORY ABOUT VICTOR FRANCO, THE MAN'S SEARCH FOR MEANING.

THE NAZI HAD TO HATE, BUT THE JEW IN THE CONCENTRATION CAMP COULD BE FREE BECAUSE HE CHOSE TO LOVE.

YOU KNOW, AT THIS MOMENT, THE PEOPLE OF UKRAINE ARE REALLY DEMONSTRATING TO THE WORLD, YOU KNOW, THE RESILIENCE OF THE HUMAN SPIRIT.

AND BY THE WAY, NOT ONLY THE PEOPLE OF UKRAINE, BECAUSE I ALSO WAS IN POLAND, AND IT'S THE PEOPLE OF SLOVAKIA, ROMANIA, POLAND, WHO ARE CARING FOR REFUGEES.

POLAND IS NOT A LARGE COUNTRY, 40 MILLION PEOPLE OR SO, AND TO HAVE 4 MILLION REFUGEES, 10% A YOUR POPULATION, IS QUITE SUBSTANTIAL.

THESE ARE FOLKS WHO ARE WELCOMING THEM INTO THEIR OWN BEDS, TAKING THEM INTO THEIR OWN HOMES.

IT'S A REAL MODEL FOR US, WE WHO ARE AMERICANS, WHO HAVE REFUGEES FLEE CONFLICT.

HOW SHOULD WE TREAT THOSE WHO ARE IN DISTRESS?

>> IS THERE AN EFFORT TO BRING THE REFUGEES TO THE UNITED STATES, TO BRING THEM INTO THE HOMES OF THE FAITHFUL HERE?

>> ACTUALLY, THERE ARE SOME EFFORTS THAT ARE UNDERTAKEN.

I UNDERSTAND IN NEW YORK THERE IS A HOME BEING SET UP.

BUT CLEARLY IT'S REALLY THE EUROPEANS WHO ARE REALLY CARRYING THE BURDEN HERE.

BUT BY THE WAY, RAFAEL, THE PROBLEM OF WAR REFUGEES IS A PROBLEM OF LEBANON, A PROBLEM OF JORDAN.

IT'S A PROBLEM ALL THROUGHOUT THE WORLD -- IN AFRICA.

AND SO EACH PLACE RIGHT NOW IN THE WORLD, BECAUSE OF THE CONFLICTS THAT WE FIND OURSELVES IN, SO MANY PEOPLE'S LIVES ARE UPENDED AND DISPLACED.

>> WE HAVE ABOUT 30 SECONDS, AND I HAVE TO ASK YOU THIS.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THOSE WHO SAY, WE'RE LOOKING AT THIS HORROR, MILLIONS ARE PRAYING FOR IT TO END.

IT DOESN'T END.

WHERE IS GOD HERE?

AND WE ONLY HAVE UNFORTUNATELY ABOUT 30 SECONDS.

>> AGAIN, IN A CONCENTRATION CAMP, GOD WAS ONCE PUT ON TRIAL.

ELIE WISELE TELLS THE STORY.

AFTER THE TRIAL, THE VERDICT WAS RENDERED.

HAS GOD ABANDONED HIS PEOPLE?

HE HAS.

LET US PRAY.

AS A CHRISTIAN, I BELIEVE GOD IS SUFFERING WITH US IN THIS MOMENT.

AND WHILE I WAS CELEBRATING GOOD FRIDAY IT WAS NOT SIMPLY A CELEBRATION.

THE UKRAINIANS WERE ON THE CROSS WITH CHRIST.

>> ALL RIGHT, WELL WE'LL HAVE TO END IT THERE.

THAT'S A GOOD POINT TO END IT.

MONSIGNOR, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, RAFAEL.

GOD BLESS.

>>> "METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, THE AMBROSE MONELL FOUNDATION.

AND BY --