[MUSIC] >> Bonnie: HELLO.

I BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY," A DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL ISSUES FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

THIS WEEK, WE ARE SPEAKING WITH WOMAN BUT LATER DR. PAULA STONE WILLIAMS.

SHE IS A TRANSGENDER AUTHOR, PUBLIC SPEAKER, AND PASTORAL COUNSELOR, AND HAS A NEW BOOK, AS A WOMAN.

SHE WRITES ABOUT HER EXPENSES BEFORE AND AFTER TRANSITIONING AND WHAT SHE LEARNED ABOUT BEING A A WOMAN.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

HOW ARE YOU?

>> Dr. Paula Stone Williams: I AM FINE.

IT'S GOOD TO BE WITH YOU TODAY.

>> Bonnie: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

SO YOU WRITE IN THE BOOK ABOUT THE FACT THAT -- I DON'T THINK IT'S REALLY GENERALLY KNOWN BY THE AMERICAN PUBLIC THAT EVEN EVANGELICALS, AND YOU ARE OF COURSE A VERY POWERFUL EVANGELICAL PASTOR BEFORE YOU TRANSITIONED, BUT THEY DON'T TALK ABOUT GENDER OR SEX OR, YOU KNOW, ANYTHING LGBTQ-RELATED, SO THEY DON'T REALLY KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

IS THAT RIGHT?> Dr. Paula Stone Williams: WELL, I DON'T THINK IT'S ACTUALLY CORRECT.

I THINK THEY WOULD BE PRETTY CONVINCED THEY KNOW WHAT THEY NEED TO KNOW ABOUT IT AND HAVE A PARTICULAR PERSPECTIVE ON WHAT THE CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES TEACH ABOUT THE LGBTQ+ POPULATION.

AND IT'S NOT PARTICULARLY POSITIVE TOWARD OUR POPULATION.

AND THIS WILL NOT JUST BE TRUE FRONTAL IN A MENTALIST CHRISTIANITY, IT WOULD BE CREW OF THE FUNDAMENTALIST FORMS OF ALL THE TEST TEST TEST TEST RELIGIONS: CHRISTINA, ISLAM, JUDAISM, ALL THREE OF THE DESERT RELIGIONS, DAVE ROWE RELIGIONS AND THEIR FUNDAMENTALIST OF FORMS TEND TO BE FAIRLY RESTRICTIVET'S ALSO IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT IN THEIR MORE GENEROUS FORMS, ALL THREE ARE VERY SUPPORTIVE OF THE LGBTQ-PLUS POPULATION.

FOR INSTANCE, THE JEWISH POPULATION IN THE UNITED STATES IS 83% SUPPORTIVE OF MARRIAGE EQUALITY AND TRANSGENDER RIGHTS.

IT'S ALSO, I THINK, IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT 52% OF CHRISTIANS IN AMERICA ARE SUPPORTIVE OF TRANSGENDER RIGHTS.

IT'S JUST THAT THE OTHER 48% ARE THE ONES WHO ARE GETTING MOST OF THE HEADLINES NOWADAYS.

>> Bonnie: WELL, WHAT WAS IT LIKE FOR YOU PREACHING TO VERY LARGE CROWDS OF PARISHIONERS?

YOU GAVE -- YOU SPOKE AT VERY LARGE MEGACHURCHES.

WHAT WERE YOU THINKING WHEN YOU WERE ATTACKING LGBTQ PEOPLE WHEN YOU SPOKE TO A LARGE AUDIENCES, AND YET SUMMER AND YOU YOU HAD THIS FEELING THAT YOU HAD ALWAYS WANTED TO BE A GIRL AND THEN A WOMAN?

>> Dr. Paula Stone Williams: WELL, BONNIE, FROM THE TIME I WAS ABOUT FOUR YEARS OF AGE, I WAS A TRAIN'S GENDER.

AND I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE, NOT ONCE EVER IN MY PUBLIC SPEAKING DID I SAY ANYTHING NEGATIVE TOWARD THE LGBTQ-PLUS POPULATION, BUT ONCE EVER.

UNFORTUNATELY, I ALSO WAS NOT SUPPORTIVE OF THEM.

I KNOW PROBABLY JUST A FEW YEARS OUT OF SEMINARY THAT I DID NOT ACCEPT THE TYPICAL EVANGELICAL TEACHING ON THE GAY POPULATION OR THE TRANSGENDER POPULATION.

I KNEW THAT MY OWN INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE AND THE INTERPRETATION OF MANY OTHER TOP NOTCH THEOLOGIANS ON SCRIPTURE IS THAT IT'S ABSOLUTELY FINE TO BE GAY, IT'S ABSOLUTELY FINE TO BE TRANS, THAT THESE ARE NOT, IN FACT, ISSUES IN THE CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES.

THE PROBLEM IS I DIDN'T TAKE A STAND FOR THAT.

I THOUGHT I COULD BRING ABOUT CHANGE FROM WITHIN AND CERTAINLY WITHIN MY DENOMINATION, WHICH WAS ABOUT 7000 CHURCHES I HAD A LOT OF INFLUENCE, A LOT OF POWER, AND I THOUGHT, WELL, IT'LL TAKE A WHILE, BUT I CAN BRING ABOUT CHANGE FROM WITHIN.

THAT WAS DEAD WRONG BECAUSE I DID NOT REALIZE AT THE TIME THAT BY NOT TAKING A STAND, I WAS IN FACT REMAINING QUITE COMFORTABLE.

AND THAT BEING COMFORTABLE IS UNFORTUNATELY SOMETHING WE HUMANS CHOOSE TO DO.

YOU KNOW, WE HAVE THIS NOTION THAT HUMANS CARE MORE ABOUT THE TRUTH AND WE CARE ABOUT BELONGING.

AND YET PRETTY MUCH EVERY SOCIOLOGIST, PSYCHOLOGISTS, ANTHROPOLOGISTS WILL TELL US THAT THAT'S JUST A NOTION WE'VE HELD FOR THE LAST 500 YEARS OR SO, AND IT'S NOT EVER BEEN TRUE.

WE HUMANS WILL ALMOST ALWAYS CHOOSE BELONGING OVER THE TRUTH.

AND I THINK I WAS GUILTY OF THAT AS WELL UNTIL I CAME TO SEE THE DAMAGE THAT IT WAS DOING.

AND OF COURSE, NOW I WISH I COULD GO BACK AND UNDO ALL THAT.

>> Bonnie: TELL ME ABOUT THE DAMAGE YOU THINK YOU DID.

>> Dr. Paula Stone Williams: WELL, I THINK THE DAMAGE WAS DONE NOT SPEAKING OUT PUBLICLY IN SUPPORT OF THE LGBTQ POPULATION, PARTICULARLY SINCE I ALREADY THEOLOGICALLY HAD COME TO THE POINT WHERE I FELT IT WAS IMPORTANT TO ACCEPT THEM.

AND I JUST THOUGHT THAT TAKING TIME AND CHANGING FROM WITHIN AND DOING THAT DELIBERATELY AND MORE SLOWLY WAS IN FACT ACCEPTABLE.

AND NOW THAT I'M ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT DIVIDE, I RECOGNIZE IT WAS NOT ACCEPTABLE.

>> Bonnie: WHAT WERE THE CONVERSATION -- YOU SAY DID NOT TALK ABOUT LGBTQ ISSUES IN YOUR -- WHEN YOU WERE SPEAKING TO CHURCH AUDIENCES.

BUT WHAT ABOUT YOUR BEHIND-THE-SCENES CONVERSATIONS WITH OTHER HIGH-RANKING MEMBERS OF THE EVANGELICAL CHURCH HAT WERE THOSE CONVERSATIONS LIKE> Dr. Paula Stone Williams: YEAH, IT WAS GENERALLY KNOWN WITHIN THOSE CHURCHES THAT I WAS SUPPORTIVE OF THE LGBT Q PLUS OVULATION.

AMONG THE LEADERS OF THE STRETCHES, NOT ALL OF THEM.

BUT IF I WAS IN A SETTING IN WHICH I WAS FAIRLY COMFORTABLE, FOR INSTANCE, I WAS THE CEO OF ONE OF THE LARGER CHURCH PLANTING ORGANIZATIONS IN THE NATION, ORGANIZATIONS STARTED CHURCHES FROM SCRATCH.

AND SO I REGULARLY WOULD BE HOLDING RETREATS FOR HOURLY PASTORS OF THOSE NEW CHURCHES AND I WOULD ROUTINELY TALK ABOUT WHERE I WAS THEOLOGICALLY WITH THAT GROUP.

AND THEN WE WOULD ALSO TALK ABOUT THE DIFFICULTIES OF MAKING THE PUBLIC, BECAUSE I THINK ALL OF US KNEW THAT WE WOULD LOSE A LOT OF OUR PEOPLE.

AND SURE ENOUGH, I'M NOW A PART OF A LOT OF POST-EVANGELICAL CHURCHES THAT HAVE COME OUT AS OPEN AND AFFIRMING.

AND SURE ENOUGH IT WAS A LOT OF PEOPLE AND A LOT OF MONEY.

AND SOMETIMES THE CHURCHES DON'T SURVIVE.

FOR THE MOST PART, THOUGH, ONCE THEY GET OVER THEIR LOSS, THE CHURCH DRIVES AND AS WELL.

IT'S INTERESTING, 36 PERCENT OF THE EVANGELICAL POPULATION ARE NOT SUPPORTIVE OF MARRIAGE EQUALITY.

THE 51 PERCENT OF EVANGELICAL MILLENNIALS ARE SUPPORTIVE OF MARRIAGE EQUALITY.

SO WE KNOW THE DYNAMIC OF SHIFTING, BUT IT'S JUST NOT SHIFTING FAST ENOUGH IN THAT WORLD.

>> Bonnie: I UNDERSTAND THE MOTIVATION FOR STAYING WITHIN THE CHURCH AND INTERPRETING SCRIPTURE DIFFERENTLY, WHICH HAPPENS IN ALL RELIGIONS.

WE HAVE DONE MANY STORIES IN THE PAST ABOUT WOMEN IN A CATHOLIC CHURCH SHOWING THAT THE PARTS OF THE OLD TESTAMENT AND NEW TESTAMENT SAY THAT WOMEN ARE NOT EQUAL TO MEN.

YOU CAN INTERPRET THEM IN MANY WAYS.

WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU ARE GOING TO BE SUCCESSFUL AT MOVING THE WHOLE CHURCH TO ACCEPT YOUR VERSION OF WHAT THE SCRIPTURES MEAN?

>> Dr. Paula Stone Williams: OH, I'M CERTAINLY NOT ARROGANT ENOUGH TO BELIEVE THAT I HAVE THE CAPACITY TO CHANGE MUCH OF ANYTHING.

BUT I KNOW THAT BECAUSE I WAS AN EVANGELICAL LEADER, THAT I'M NOT SOMEONE WHO COULD JUST DISAPPEAR INTO THE NIGHT AND GO ABOUT MY LIFE AND NOT SPEAK INTO THAT WORLD.

MOST OF THE SPEAKING I DO AND I SPEAK ALL OVER THE WORLD IS NOT ACTUALLY ON TRANSGENDER ISSUES OR ON SPIRITUALITY.

IT'S ON GENDER EQUITY.

AND I HAVE BEEN DOING THAT FOR FOUR YEARS, EVER SINCE MY FIRST TEDTALK CAME OUT.

AND THAT'S THE MAJOR SUBJECT ON WHICH I SPEAK.

SO GENERALLY WHEN RELIGIOUS STUFF COMES UP, IT COMES UP MORE IN THE Q&A TIME AND NOT IN THE KEYNOTE TIME BECAUSE I'M NOT ASKED TO SPEAK THAT OFTEN ON THAT SUBJECT.

I CERTAINLY AM NOT INVITED INTO EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN ENVIRONMENTS TO TALK ABOUT IT, BECAUSE THAT WORLD HAS NO INTEREST IN HEARING FROM ME.

>> Bonnie: YOU TALK A LOT ABOUT MUSIC IN THE BOOK.

WAS MUSIC PART OF THE THERAPY THAT KEPT YOU GOING WHEN YOU WERE -- WHEN YOU DECIDED TO TRANSITION?

>> Dr. Paula Stone Williams: NO, IT WAS NOT LISTENING TO MUSIC, CERTAINLY.

BUT SINGING WAS ALWAYS IMPORTANT TO ME AND I HAD MY OWN BED, MY OWN VOCAL BAND.

WE MADE FOUR ALBUMS BACK IN THE DAY WHEN I WAS -- >> Bonnie: WHAT WAS IT CALLED?

>> Dr. Paula Stone Williams: WE WERE CALLED THE ADVOCATES, AND WE -- I LOVE THAT MUSIC.

AND NOW SINGING IS TRICKY, BECAUSE AS A TRANSGENDER PERSON, ANTIANDROGEN ESTROGEN WILL MAKE TONS OF CHANGES TO YOUR BODY.

THEY DON'T MAKE CHANGES TO YOUR VOICE, TO YOUR VOCAL CORDS.

SO WHEN I SING, IT IS STILL A MALE VOICE.

IN A RESISTED DOING THAT FOR THE FIRST SIX OR SEVEN YEARS AFTER TRANSITION.

IN THE LAST YEAR, I STARTED SINGING MUCH MORE OFTEN, AND IT HAS BEEN HEALING FOR ME TO BE COMFORTABLE WITH THE VOICE I HAVE.

>> Bonnie: HOW HAVE YOU CHANGED IN TERMS OF BEING AN EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN?

HOW DOES -- HOW DOES TRANSITION -- >> Dr. Paula Stone Williams: YEAH, I WOULD NOT CONSIDER MYSELF TO BE AN EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN AT THIS POINT.

>> Bonnie: OKAY.

>> Dr. Paula Stone Williams: I HAVE SHIFTED AWAY FROM A LOT OF THOSE BELIEFS.

WE SEE THERE ARE A LOT OF POST-EVANGELICALS OUT THERE, AND I WOULD BE AMONG THEM.

WE SEE THREE MAJOR SHIFTS TAKING PLACE IN CHRISTIANITY TODAY.

I STUDIED RELIGIONS FOR A LONG TIME, I USED TO TEACH A DOCTORAL COURSE CURRENT TRENDS IN AMERICAN RELIGION IN MY PREVIOUS LIFE.

AND WE ARE SEEING THREE MAJOR SHIFTS TAKING PLACE: ONE SHIFTED AWAY FROM ORTHODOXY TO ORTHO PROXY, FROM BELIEVING THE RIGHT THINGS TO LOVING WELL.

AND THAT IS A MAJOR PARADIGM SHIFT, THE LIKES OF WHICH WE HAVE NOT SEEN IN 500 YEARS.

THE SECOND SHIPS TO SEA IS THE CHURCH EXISTING NOT FOR ITS OWN SELF PROTECTION, BUT EXISTING FOR THE COMMON GOOD.

AND A THIRD SHIFT WE SEE A SHIFT AWAY FROM SAYING GOD IS THE ETERNAL THREAT AND IS EAGER TO SEND EVERYONE TO HELL, TO GOD AS THE SUFFERING PARTICIPANT WHO LOVES ALL OF US AS WE ARE.

THOSE ARE MAJOR SHIFTS AWAY FROM EVANGELICAL TEACHING.

EVANGELICAL TEACHING WANTS TO SEPARATE ITSELF FROM THE WORLD, SEES THE WORLD AS A THREAT.

IT'S FOCUS VERY MUCH ON WHAT YOU BELIEVE MORE THAN WHAT YOU PRACTICE, BELIEVING THE RIGHT THINGS IS CRITICALLY IMPORTANT IN THE EVANGELICAL WORLD.

AND ALSO FOCUS VERY MUCH ON THEOLOGICAL CONCEPT CALLED THE SUBSTITUTIONARY ATONEMENT, THE BELIEF THAT GOD HAS TO SEND US TO HEAL IF WE HAVE EVER MADE A MISTAKE IN OUR LIVES, IN THE ONLY REASON WE WILL NOT HAVE TO GO TO HELL IS THAT JESUS PAID THE PENALTY FOR US.

AND THAT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT I BELIEVE ANY LONGER, IN NORWOOD YOU SEE THAT TOLD AND MOST POSTING ON EVANGELICAL CHURCHES.

YOU SEE A LOT OF POST EVANGELICAL CHURCHES GROWING.

I SAY POST EVANGELICAL BECAUSE OUR METHODOLOGIES, OUR CHURCH POLITY TENDS TO BE THE SAME AS EVANGELICALS.

BUT OUR THEOLOGY IS QUITE DIFFERENT.

OUR WORSHIP STYLE TENDS TO BE THE SAME WITH GREAT CONTEMPORARY MUSIC AND VERY INTERESTING AND PRACTICAL TEACHINGT'S THE THEOLOGY THAT HAS SHIFTED.

>> Bonnie: WERE YOU IN THE CHURCH WHEN DONALD TRUMP RAN FOR PRESIDENT?

>> Dr. Paula Stone Williams: NO, I WAS NOT.

I WAS LONG OUT OF IT, AND I WOULD HAVE BEEN OUT OF IT BY THEN, REGARDLESS.

I KNOW THE POINT AT WHICH I WOULD HAVE LEFT EVANGELICALISM, EVEN IF I HAD NOT TRANSITIONED.

MY SON WAS PASTOR OF A LARGE, RAPIDLY GROWING CHURCH IN BROOKLYN, NEW YORK, AND HIS CHURCH CAME OUT AS OPEN AND AFFIRMING.

AND HE WAS OSTRACIZED FROM THAT DENOMINATION AS WELL.

AND SO, I WOULD HAVE BEEN OUT I THINK BEFORE THAT.

IT'S BEEN ALARMING TO ME TO LOOK WITH THE EVANGELICALISM AND SEE HOW IT IS EVEN BECOME DIVIDED AMONG ITSELF.

WE SEE A LOT OF PEOPLE COMING INTO OUR POST-EVANGELICAL CHURCHES.

AND THE PASTOR OF A CHURCH HERE IN BOULDER COUNTY, COLORADO, THAT'S POST-EVANGELICAL.

AND WE SEE LOTS OF FOLKS COMING OUT OF EVANGELICAL CHURCHES WHO JUST CANNOT TAKE THAT MORE RIGHT-WING PERSPECTIVE ON THINGS.

>> Bonnie: INTERESTING, AND YET IT'S THE CONSTITUENCY, REALLY, THAT ELECTED PRESIDENT, FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP TO OFFICE, RIGHT?

>> Dr. Paula Stone Williams: WELCOME IT'S REALLY PRETTY FASCINATING.

PEOPLE ALSO OFTEN SAY TO ME, JACOB IT'S A SHAME THAT ALL THE REPUBLICANS ARE OPPOSED TO TRANSGENDER RIGHTS AND A SAY, WELL, I'D BE CAREFUL ABOUT THAT BECAUSE TWO STUDIES WERE DONE AT THE TIME OF THE 2020 ELECTION IN BOTH OF THOSE STUDIES INDICATED THAT 61 PERCENT OF TRUMP VOTERS IN ONCE ONE STUDY, 61 PERCENT OF REPUBLICANS IN A SINGLE STRAIGHT IN THE OTHER STUDY ARE SUPPORTIVE OF TRANSGENDER RIGHTSO IF IN FACT 61 PERCENT OF REPUBLICANS ARE SUPPORTIVE OF TRANSGENDER RIGHTS, AND I THINK IT'S FAIR TO EXTRAPOLATE OUT FROM THOSE 22 STUDIES THAT THOSE NUMBERS ARE PROBABLY RIGHT, THEN WHO IS DRIVING THESE ANTI-TRANS LAWS IN THE 30 STATES WERE TO HAVE BEEN INTRODUCED?

AND, YES, INDEED, THOSE ARE STATES CONTROLLED BY REPUBLICAN LEGISLATURES, BUT IT'S NOT REPUBLICANS DRIVING IT IS MUCH AS IT IS EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS.

84 PERCENT OF WHOM BELIEVE GENDER IS IMMUTABLY DETERMINED AT BIRTH, 61 PERCENT OF WHOM BELIEVE THEY'VE ALREADY GIVEN TO MANY CIVIL RIGHTS TO TRANSGENDER PEOPLE COME AND GET ONLY 25 PERCENT OF WHOM KNOW SOMEONE WHO'S OUT AS A TRANSGENDER PERSONO IT'S QUITE CLEAR RIGHT NOW THAT THAT IS THE SEGMENT OF THE AMERICAN POPULATION DRIVING THESE LAWS KNOW IT'S FEAR-BASED WHEN THE DAY IS DONE, AND IT IS IN FACT SOMETHING THAT WILL SHIFT.

THE ARTS ARE ALWAYS THE FIRST PLACE YOU SEE CHANGE ANTHROPOLOGY -- ANTHROPOLOGICALLY, SOCIAL AGILITY AND CULTURE.

AND RELIGION IS ALWAYS THE LAST PLACES YOU THOSE CHANGES OCCURRING, PARTICULARLY IN THE CONSERVATIVE FORMS OF THOSE RELIGIONS ARE IN THE UNITED STATES, IT WILL BE THE FUNDAMENTALIST FORMS OF CHRISTIANITY.

>> Bonnie: TELL ME ABOUT MALE PRIVILEGE AND HOW YOU SAW YOU WERE -- TRANSITIONING MADE YOU AWARE OF THINGS ABOUT MALE PRIVILEGE THAT YOU DID NOT KNOW UNTIL YOU TRANSITIONED TO A WOMAN.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT, PLEASE> Dr. Paula Stone Williams: WELCOME A FESTIVAL, THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO SAY THAT I DO NOT CLAIM TO HAVE A CISGENDER FEMALE EXPERIENCE.

I COME FROM A LITTLE SPACE BETWEEN GENDERS.

I COME FROM THE BORDERLANDS.

I'M A TRANSGENDER WOMAN.

PEOPLE WILL OFTEN ASK YOU, DO YOU FEEL HUNDRED PERCENT LIKE A WOMAN?

AND I SAY, WELL, YOU KNOW, I FEEL 100% LIKE A TRANSGENDER WOMAN.

PLUS I'M JUST ME.

I CAN'T SPEAK FOR ANYBODY ELSE IN THE TRANSGENDER COMMUNITY, SO I CAN ONLY SPEAK FOR MYSELF.

I SAY FOR MYSELF.

THERE'S NO WAY A WELL-EDUCATED WHITE MALE IN AMERICA CAN UNDERSTAND HOW MUCH THE CULTURE IS TILTED IN HIS FAVOR.

THERE'S NO WAY HE CAN UNDERSTAND IT BECAUSE THAT'S ALL HE'S EVER KNOWN AND ALL HE EVER WILL KNOW.

AND I THINK THERE'S NO WAY FOR A WOMAN TO UNDERSTAND THE FOLLY OF THAT, BECAUSE BEING A WOMAN IS ALL SHE'S EVER KNOWN.

I MEAN, SHE MIGHT HAVE AN INKLING SHE'S WORKING TWICE AS HARD FOR ANY 1% AS MUCH BUT I DON'T THINK MOST WOMEN HAVE ANY IDEA.

AND THEN THE OFFICE ACROSS THE HALL, I KNOW I WAS THAT GUY, AND I FIND THAT FAR, FAR MORE DIFFICULT TO NAVIGATE NOW THAN IT WAS BEFORE.

>> Bonnie: HOW, TOLD ME?

>> Dr. Paula Stone Williams: OH, MY GOODNESS.

PROBABLY MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE, IF I COULD JUST GO BACK AND TELL ALL THINGS.

THE FIRST THING I WOULD SAY IS, OH, MY GOD, JUST ASSUME A WOMAN KNOWS WHAT SHE'S TALKING ABOUT AND TREAT HER ACCORDINGLY.

I MEAN, THAT ALONE WOULD GO A LONG WAY.

I JUST GET SO, SO TIRED OF PEOPLE ASSUMING THAT I COULDN'T POSSIBLY BE AN EXPERT IN MORE THAN ONE AREA R EVEN AN EXPERT IN ONE AREA.

YOU KNOW, I WAS BROUGHT UNDER THE BOARD OF A OF A NONPROFIT, AND IT'S A LARGE NONPROFIT.

WE HAVE A LARGE NATIONAL CONFERENCE.

WE HIRED A NEW CEO WE WERE TALKING ABOUT HAVING HER SPEAK GIVE A KEYNOTE FOR THE CONFERENCE.

AND I SAID, WELL, SHE'S NOT A PUBLIC SPEAKER.

IT MIGHT BE BETTER IF WE JUST INTERVIEW HER, BUT IF YOU WOULD LIKE HER TO SPEAK, I WOULD BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO COACH HER.

WHICH POINT A POWERFUL WHITE MALE IN THE ROOM SAID, WELL, IF WE'RE GOING TO DO THAT, WHY DON'T WE HIRE A REAL COACH?

I'M A SPEAKERS AMBASSADOR FOR TED.

I COACH TED SPEAKERS.

I'VE TAUGHT SPEECH ON THREE UNIVERSITIES, TWO IN THE UNITED STATES, ONE IN EUROPE.

TELL ME WHAT PART OF THAT DOES NOT MAKE ME A REAL COACH.

BUT OF COURSE, I DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING BECAUSE I'VE DISCOVERED IF YOU SPEAK UP AS A WOMAN NOW, YOU'RE JUST THAT WOMAN.

AND I'VE ALSO DISCOVERED AND THIS HAS BEEN VERIFIED TIME AND AGAIN, MEN WILL INTERRUPT WOMEN TWICE AS OFTEN AS THEY INTERRUPT OTHER MEN.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, YOU JUST STAY SILENT BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT YOU LEARN TO DO AS A WOMAN.

AND YOU LOSE ALL THE CONFIDENCE THAT ALL THOSE DECADES AS A MAN GAVE YOU, BECAUSE THE WORLD DOESN'T TREAT YOU AS THE EXPERT THAT YOU ARE.

I LOOK AT WOMEN WHO HAVE THIS GREAT CONFIDENCE AND COUPLED WITH THE GREAT HUMILITY AND I THINK, OH, MY GOODNESS, HOW DID THEY GET THERE?

BECAUSE I'VE LOST MORE IN EIGHT YEARS AS A WOMAN THAN I THINK I GAINED IN A LOT OF DECADES AS A MAN.

AND, YOU KNOW, I KNOW I WILL NOT LOSE LONG ENOUGH, TO LIVE LONG ENOUGH TO LOSE MY MALE PRIVILEGE.

I MEAN, I KNOW I HAVE BROUGHT A LOT OF IT WITH ME WHEN I TRANSITIONED, BUT TO ME, IT IS JUST SO FRUSTRATING TO ME TO NOT BE ACCEPTED FOR THAT.

I MEAN, I ALSO WISH I COULD GO BACK AND TELL PAUL THE IMPORTANCE OF DEFERENCE.

YOU KNOW, WE TEACH WOMEN DEFERENCE ALMOST AS A BIRTHRIGHT AND THEN SEE DEFERENCE, HIS WEAKNESS.

AND I SAY TO ME, AND EVEN WHEN YOU'RE AN ALLY, THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BECAUSE YOU'RE STILL IN CONTROL BEING AN ALLY.

DEFERENCE IS WHEN YOU MOVED FROM BEING AN ALLY TO BEING AN ASSISTANT OR AN APPRENTICE.

WHEN YOU SAY TO THE WOMEN IN YOUR WORLD, YOU TELL ME WHAT YOU NEED ME TO DO NEXT.

THAT IS DEFERENCE.

AND I DIDN'T LEARN DEFERENCE.

I WISH I COULD GO BACK AND TELL PAUL THE IMPORTANCE OF REALLY TRULY, DEEPLY LISTENING.

I'M A PSYCHOTHERAPIST BY TRADE.

THAT'S WHAT MY DOCTORATE IN.

AND I KNOW I'M A FAR BETTER THERAPIST NOW BECAUSE I TRULY JUST LISTEN NOW.

I DON'T THINK IT'S MY JOB TO PROVIDE ANSWERS.

THE CLIENT HAS THE ANSWERS WITHIN THEMSELVES.

MY JOB IS JUST TO HELP THEM REMOVE THE OBSTACLES TO FINDING THEIR OWN ANSWERS.

AND I CAN'T DO THAT IF I DON'T LISTEN.

>> Bonnie: OH, THAT'S VERY INTERESTING.

TELL US ABOUT HOW YOUR FAMILY REACTED TO AND ULTIMATELY A -- YOU STILL HAVE A VERY LOVING FAMILY, THREE CHILDREN, AND EX-WIFE, ETC.

>> Dr. Paula Stone Williams: YEAH, IT WAS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT.

I THINK THAT PROBABLY WAS WHEN AREA THAT HE GREATLY UNDERESTIMATED HOW DEVASTATING IT WAS GOING TO BE, PARTICULARLY TO MY WIFE AND MY SON.

MY SON AND I HAVE DONE A TED TALK TOGETHER.

WE SPEAK A LOT TOGETHER AROUND THE NATION.

HE'S WRITTEN A BEAUTIFUL BOOK, SHE'S MY DAD, THAT TALKS ABOUT HIS STRUGGLE BECAUSE THERE AREN'T MANY BOOKS OUT THERE FOCUSED ON THE FAMILIES OF TRANSGENDER PEOPLEUT IT'S BEEN DIFFICULT.

I MEAN, IT'S SHIFTED OUR RELATIONSHIP FUNDAMENTALLY.

I MEAN, I EXPLODED THE FAMILY NARRATIVE, AND YOU DON'T DO THAT WITHOUT CONSEQUENCES.

I THINK FOR MY GIRLS, IT'S NOT BEEN QUITE AS DIFFICULT.

THEY WERE THERE RIGHT AWAY, VERY SUPPORTIVE.

THE BOTH OF THEM HAVE FOUND THEIR NEED TO KIND OF TAKE THEIR LEAVE LATER AND DEAL WITH THINGS.

FOR KATHY, WE REMAIN CLOSED, WE STILL WORK TOGETHER.

BUT IT CONTINUES TO BE DIFFICULT FOR HER.

NEED IT'S HARD.

YOU KNOW, I REMEMBER WHEN WE -- OUR MARRIAGE THERAPIST WAS A BRILLIANT MAN AND RETIRED.

HE WAS LIKE 110, AND WE WERE HIS FINAL CLIENTS ON HIS FINAL DAY AND WE WERE BOTH THERAPISTS.

I JUST ASKED HIM, MIKE WAS HIS NAME.

MIKE, HOW MANY COUPLES ARE WILLING TO WORK THIS HARD?

AND HE SAID, OH MAYBE 1 PERCENT.

AND I SAID, HOW MANY COUPLES GET THIS FAR?

AND HE SAID, OH, YEAH, AGAIN, PROBABLY 1%.

SO THIS IS WHAT MAKES IT SO TRAGIC BECAUSE YOU'RE A LESBIAN AND CATHY'S NOT.

AND IT WAS A TWO HOUR SILENT DRIVE HOME BECAUSE WE REALIZED FOR BOTH OF US TO BE TRUE TO OURSELVES, THAT MEANT THAT WE WOULD NO LONGER BE MARRIED.

AND IT WAS DEVASTATING.

AND IT'S REALLY BEEN HARD FOR US.

I NEVER REGRET TRANSITIONING.

I NEVER THINK ABOUT TRANSITIONING BACK.

I'M VERY COMFORTABLE IN THIS BODY, IN THE LIFE I LIVE NOW.

BUT IF I WERE EVER GOING TO REGRET IT, IT WOULD BE PURELY BECAUSE OF CATHY AND JONATHAN.

I'M I STILL STRUGGLE.

>> Bonnie: WHY DOES SHE CONTINUE TO WORK WITH YOU -- >> Dr. Paula Stone Williams: YOU WOULD HAVE TO ASK HER THAT.

WE WERE PARENTS TOGETHER, GRANDPARENTS TOGETHER.

WE WERE MARRIED FOR 40 YEARS, WE HAVE A LOT OF DEEP RESPECT AND AFFECTION FOR EACH OTHER.

AND SO, WE CONTINUE TO BE GOOD, CLOSE FRIENDS AS WELL AS COWORKERS.

WE SPEND A LOT OF TIME WITH OUR FIVE GRANDDAUGHTERS.

FOR THEM, MY TRANSITION IS NOT -- IT WAS REALLY EASY FOR THEM.

>> Bonnie: VERY QUICKLY BEFORE WE GO, WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THESE LAWS THAT SEVERAL STATES ARE CONSIDERING OR PAST, THEY DON'T SAY GAY LAWS, IS THE QUIP THAT DESCRIBES THAT I SUPPOSE.

BUT IT DOES NOT ALLOW TEACHERS TO TALK ABOUT LGBTQ, TO TEACH THE CHILDREN ABOUT WHAT THAT MEANS.

AND IT IS SEEN AS VERY ANTI-GAY, PARTICULARLY TO TRANSGENDER CHILDREN, CHILDREN GOING THROUGH, YOU KNOW, I WAS BORN INTO BODY X BUT I BELONG IN BODY Y.

HOW DAMAGING IS THAT, DO YOU THINK?ND HOW LONG WILL THIS PROCESS?

>> Dr. Paula Stone Williams: IS HORRENDOUSLY DAMAGING.

THIS NUMBER AT THIS PEOPLE GROUP IN THE UNITED STATES MAN TRANSGENDER WOMEN OF COLOR, TRANSGENDER CHILDREN.

TRANSGENDER CHILDREN HAVE A SUICIDE COMPLETION RATE 13 TIMES HIGHER THAN THEIR PEERS.

SO, YES, THIS IS TERRIBLY, TERRIBLY INAPPROPRIATE.

THERE WAS JUST A REPORT TODAY AND EITHER THE WASHINGTON POST OR THE NEW YORK TIMES ABOUT THE GOVERNOR OF UTAH ACKNOWLEDGING THAT THEIR ATTEMPTS AT PASSING TRANSGENDER ANTI-TRANSGENDER LEGISLATION WERE FOCUSED ON EXACTLY FOUR CHILDREN IN THE STATE, ONE OF WHOM IS A TRANSGENDER GIRL WHO IS PLAYING SPORTS.

SO ALL OF THIS TEMPEST IN A TEAPOT IS FOCUSED ON THAT ONE ADOLESCENT CHILD.

THESE ARE SOLUTIONS TO PROBLEMS THAT DON'T EXIST,THE PROBLEMS DON'T EXIST, AND THEIR SOLUTIONS ARE COSTING CHILDREN LIVES AND, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE MOVING TO COLORADO FROM TEXAS BECAUSE THEY CANNOT BEAR WHAT'S HAPPENING IN TEXAS.

TEXAS NOT ONLY HAS ALL THE ANTI-TRANSGENDER ORDERS THAT HAVE BEEN PASSED DOWN FROM THE GOVERNOR AND WITH THE SUPPORT OF THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR, THEY ALSO HAVE 40 DIFFERENT LAWS PENDING IN THEIR LEGISLATURE.

YOU KNOW, IT IS JUST THE CREATION OF AN ENEMY THAT DOESN'T EXIST.

AND IT IS THE LAST GASP OF A FRIGHTENED SEGMENT OF THE POPULATION.

CREATING THE MOST INAPPROPRIATE OF ENEMIES, THE MOST VULNERABLE AMONG US.

IT IS TRULY TRAGIC.

>> Bonnie: I READ AN ARTICLE IN THE PAST WEEK ABOUT THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT IT'S A NONISSUE OR THEY ARE CREATING AN ISSUE AROUND THE NONENTITY, THAT IT REALLY IS NOT A GRASSROOTS MOVEMENT.

IT'S ALL THE OUT -- ALL THE ACTIVISM AROUND THIS IS FUNDED BY THE COOK FOUNDATION, WHICH IS CAMINO, SOME OF THE RICHEST ARCH CONSERVATIVES IN THE COUNTRY.

AND SO, THEY FOUND AN ISSUE THEY THINK REPUBLICANS CAN CAMPAIGN ON IN THE UPCOMING MIDTERM ELECTIONS.

YOU SEE IT AS A NONISSUE?

OR DO YOU THINK IT WILL BE A WINNING ISSUE FOR THEM?

>> Dr. Paula Stone Williams: IT MIGHT WIN FOR THEM IN THE PRIMARIES.

IS NOT GOING TO WIN FOR THEM IN THE GENERAL ELECTION OUTSIDE OF EXTREMELY CONSERVATIVE SEGMENTS OF AMERICA.

YOU CAN PRETTY MUCH LOOK AT WHERE EVANGELICALISM IS ITS MOST CONSERVATIVE AND ITS STRONGEST AND YOU CAN SEE THAT THOSE ARE THE PARTS OF THE 30 STATES, MOST ALL OF THEM IN THE CENTRAL AND SOUTHERN PART OF THE NATION.

AND IN THOSE SEGMENTS, YEAH, THEY MAY BE ABLE TO WIN GENERAL ELECTIONS, BUT THIS IS AN AREA IN WHICH THE CULTURE HAS MOVED ON.

LGBTQ PLUS ISSUES OR PLACES THE CULTURE HAS MOVED ON AND THERE'S REALLY NOT A LEG TO STAND ON BIBLICALLY.

SCRIPTURALLY, THEY'LL TALK ABOUT SIX SCRIPTURES THAT ARE SUPPOSEDLY IN OPPOSITION TO HAVING GAY RELATIONSHIPS OR BEING IN GAY RELATIONSHIPS.

THEY CAN'T POINT TO A SINGLE SCRIPTURE, NOT ONE, ANYWHERE IN THE OLD OR NEW TESTAMENTS THAT SPEAKS IN ANY NEGATIVE WAY ABOUT BEING TRANSGENDER.

SO NOT ONLY HAVE THEY CREATED A PROBLEM THAT DOESN'T EXIST, THEY'VE CREATED A PROBLEM THEY CANNOT BACK UP THROUGH THEIR OWN SCRIPTURES SO IT IS A LAST GASP.

BUT IN THE MEANTIME, CHILDREN ARE IN GREAT PERIL, AND WE CANNOT ALLOW THIS TO GO UNCHALLENGED>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

THAT'S AN EXCELLENT PLACE TO END.

IT IS THE LAST GASP.

WE WILL CERTAINLY BE WATCHING.

IT'S A VERY CONTROVERSIAL ISSUE AND AFFECTS SO MANY PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY.

THANK YOU SO MUCH, MS. WILLIAMS, FOR YOUR TIME.

THAT'S ALL FOR THIS EDITION.

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